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Should a Christian go to war?
- Thread starter Blue sapphire
- Start date
Nor have you convinced me that Jesus calls upon me to present my wife and two daughter to be raped and killed when I have the means to protect them.
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I suppose those SEAL Snipers are going to Hell? They disobeyed Jesus when they killed those pirates? Not SO! They are Gods Servants. Avenging Angels placed upon this Earth to bring wrath upon evil doers. This is an example of Romans 13 at its best.
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TG123
Regular Member
I'm not in the position to decide who goes to Heaven or Hell, neither are you.
I'm not sure if they were serving God or serving President Obama... they were on his payroll and how do you know if they were even Christian?
BernieOD, if an Iraqi soldier gunned down an American marine during the 2003 invasion, would he be an angel of God as well? What about the Al Qaeda and Taleban suicide bombers who target NATO forces in Afghanistan? (interestingly, these guys call themselves "holy warriors", they think that God has sent them to kill Americans. Would you use Romans 13 to justify the killing of American soldiers too?)
Since the occupation of these lands is wrong, does that mean that God wants the soldiers to die and that the insurgents are angels?
I'm not sure if they were serving God or serving President Obama... they were on his payroll and how do you know if they were even Christian?
BernieOD, if an Iraqi soldier gunned down an American marine during the 2003 invasion, would he be an angel of God as well? What about the Al Qaeda and Taleban suicide bombers who target NATO forces in Afghanistan? (interestingly, these guys call themselves "holy warriors", they think that God has sent them to kill Americans. Would you use Romans 13 to justify the killing of American soldiers too?)
Since the occupation of these lands is wrong, does that mean that God wants the soldiers to die and that the insurgents are angels?
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God determines the times and boundries of all nations. No leader comes to power without Gods allowing it. When we invaded these nations, we took it upon ourselves to determine the times and boundries of nations and we are paying for it.
In the case of the Somali Pirates, they were the agressors and they recived the wrath of government in accordance with Romans 13. You would condem those SEALS for killing those Pirates. I cannot. Likewise, I refuse to hate the enemies in Itaq and Afgahnistan because we are the invaders and I cannot balme them for doing to us over there what I would be doing to them if they were over here. Even when we were diving under ships in search of bombs they might have planted, I had no hatred of the enemy because as horrible as 9-11 was, some of thier grievences against us were valid. This did not prevent me from doing my job. It had me doing it without hating the enemy.
In the case of the Somali Pirates, they were the agressors and they recived the wrath of government in accordance with Romans 13. You would condem those SEALS for killing those Pirates. I cannot. Likewise, I refuse to hate the enemies in Itaq and Afgahnistan because we are the invaders and I cannot balme them for doing to us over there what I would be doing to them if they were over here. Even when we were diving under ships in search of bombs they might have planted, I had no hatred of the enemy because as horrible as 9-11 was, some of thier grievences against us were valid. This did not prevent me from doing my job. It had me doing it without hating the enemy.
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But the hungry should be fed, the naked clothed. But the attacked should be left to be raped and killed?
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If those SEALS were Christian, you would be condemming them for killing "Those poor Somali Priates" I find it amazing how the likes of you can forgive the attacker and condem the defender. When Jesus rebuked Peter, he said "Had I not chosen to drink from my Fathers Cup?" Which is to say that it was the will of the Father that he be taken into custody at that moment. Not for us to allow every rapist to continue to rape, Robber to rob, and killer to kill. He went on to command Peter "Put your sword back in its sheath" Not "Turn it in to the authorities" or "Get rid of it and dont ever carry a weapon again" He even commanded them to sell thier cloak and buy a sword.
I dont live by the sword, I simply have one of needed.
I dont live by the sword, I simply have one of needed.
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No more than a worker puts his faith in his tools. Do we not work? Or do we expect Christ to feed us with manna from Heaven. If someone was injured, do we put faith in Christ and not our first aid kit? If a house is burning down, would you accuse me of putting more faith in my water hose instead of Christ? Fighting off an attacker is no more a sin than binding the woulds of an injured person with a first aid kit, putting our a fire with a hose, feeding the hungry with money one earned, repairing ones house or car with tools. My weapons are simply a tool of this world alongside my fire extingguisher, first aid kit, tool box, vehicle, and other things. Anyone who refuses to work ecpecting Christ to rain down manna from Heaven is a fool. Paul commanded "All should earn the bread they eat" Likewise, those in need should be fed when hungry, clothed when naked, and defended when attacked.
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LJSGM
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3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
I'm just saying... If you want change the world, the less worldly way to do so is to preach Christ.
Just saying.
I'm just saying... If you want change the world, the less worldly way to do so is to preach Christ.
Just saying.
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TG123
Regular Member
Funny how you put "Those poor Somali pirates" in quotations as if I called them that. They attacked a ship, took a hostage and were killed in a gunfight. Regardless of how I think about violence, I never said they were innocent or that what happened to them was unfair. I also didn't condemn the Navy SEALs. You need to learn to actually read what the other person wrote.
The passages you cited do not anywhere mention Jesus telling Peter to kill anyone or suggesting that killing was OK. Did the disciples use swords to free Stephen? To resist arrest for their faith? To defend their families when they were being taken away? Find me just one incident in the Book of Acts or the Gospels where Christ's followers have used violence or have been instructed or allowed to use violence.
As a side note, you may want to look into the history of recent US foreign policy in Somalia since 2006. Check it out, see who assisted the Ethiopian invasion on Christmas Eve and who helped them bomb civilians as their tanks and warplanes swept over the border. You may want to read up about CIA secret prisons in Ethiopia for Somalis convicted of "terrorism" (ie not wanting their country to be run by US backed warlords) and how American backed, armed and financed Ethiopia deals with dissidents and Somalis who don't accept their occupation.
Somali Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S. Secretly Backing Warlords in Somalia - washingtonpost.com
Breaking Legal News - Headline Legal News - Law Firm & Lawyer News - Court News - Law News
American Chronicle | SOMALIA: Two Years After the US-Backed Invasion and Occupation
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In your opiniopn, Those SEALS snipers were evil for killing those "Poor Pirates" You have more condemnation for them than you do the Pirates. If those SEALS were in your Church, you would probably give them an earfull. You are pro violence. Pro criminal violence. You have contempt for policemen. military, and any citizen who fights off an attacker calling upon people to submit to rape, robbery, and murder. That makes you more evil than the worst rapist, robber or murderere because your ministy consists of going before them and jelping then rape, rob and murder without resistence and without having to suffer the wrath of governments.
Why then Did Christ not command Peter to get rid of his sword but instead, put it back in his sheath?
Why then Did Christ not command Peter to get rid of his sword but instead, put it back in his sheath?
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You claim I shoudl have:
1) Either refused to answer my recall to active duty following 9-11 or refused to use a weapon and vow to "Love the enemy" By allowing him to plant his bombs and blow people up.
2) That I should not have threatened the man qho wanted to rape and kill my family and instead "Loved him" By not only presenting my wife to be raped but my 10 & 6 year old daughters as well.
YTou ministry is a pro rape, pro robbery, and pro murder misistry where you love the killer and hate those who defend their families.
1) Either refused to answer my recall to active duty following 9-11 or refused to use a weapon and vow to "Love the enemy" By allowing him to plant his bombs and blow people up.
2) That I should not have threatened the man qho wanted to rape and kill my family and instead "Loved him" By not only presenting my wife to be raped but my 10 & 6 year old daughters as well.
YTou ministry is a pro rape, pro robbery, and pro murder misistry where you love the killer and hate those who defend their families.
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(pre cross teaching)
Mat 5:44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(post cross)
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
Rom 12:19-21 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
There is no scriptural post-cross example (that i can find) of Christians initiating violence against another person. Jesus even rebuked Peter for unsheathing his sword to defend Him! Our weapon is the gospel of peace!
Mat 5:44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you;
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
(post cross)
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
Rom 12:19-21 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (20) Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (21) Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
There is no scriptural post-cross example (that i can find) of Christians initiating violence against another person. Jesus even rebuked Peter for unsheathing his sword to defend Him! Our weapon is the gospel of peace!
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My Job in the military was to guard the Harbors.
You cannot convince me to repent for my failure to love Bin Ladens men and allow them to "Peacfully" Blow up our ships.
I once used the threat of deadly force to deter a rapist. You cannot convince me to repent of failing to love the rapist and allow him to "Peacfully: Rape and kill my wife and daighters.
The Holy Bible, New International Version®. Pradis CD-ROM:Mt 12:29. Grand Rapids: The Zondervan Corporation, © 1973, 1978, 1984.
Mt 12:29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
The Holy Bible, New International Version®. Pradis CD-ROM:Lk 11:21. Grand Rapids: The Zondervan Corporation, © 1973, 1978, 1984.
Lk 11:21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.
You cannot convince me to repent for my failure to love Bin Ladens men and allow them to "Peacfully" Blow up our ships.
I once used the threat of deadly force to deter a rapist. You cannot convince me to repent of failing to love the rapist and allow him to "Peacfully: Rape and kill my wife and daighters.
The Holy Bible, New International Version®. Pradis CD-ROM:Mt 12:29. Grand Rapids: The Zondervan Corporation, © 1973, 1978, 1984.
Mt 12:29 "Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
The Holy Bible, New International Version®. Pradis CD-ROM:Lk 11:21. Grand Rapids: The Zondervan Corporation, © 1973, 1978, 1984.
Lk 11:21 "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.
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There is nothing peacfull about allowing rapist to rape, robbers to rob, murderers to kill. Those who go before criminals and disarm thier victims so they can "Paecfully" Rape, rob, and kill are more evil than the criminals themselves.
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TG123
Regular Member
Ummm... show me where I said one word condemning the SEALs or police officers and I'll stop laughing at your baseless accusations against me.
I'm not saying you should allow anyone to be raped, if anyone tried touching my mom, dad, brother or girlfriend he would have to do it over my dead body. I'm not saying I'd allow anyone to touch them, I would do everything possible to fight them off or restrain them but I would not kill them.
I don't know why Jesus didn't command Peter to get rid of his sword but put it into his sheath.
The fact is, nowhere in the Bible has Peter used his sword violently except in the Garden of Gethsemane.
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