Short question for the proponents of "objective values"

[Chesterton]

My definition of an objective value is something in reality in relation to a consciousness, something that one acts to gain or keep. Gold has many uses in technology and beyond that it is the perfect medium of exchange. It is homogeneous, infinitely divisible, rare and portable. It fills a very real human need of storing excess production in an imperishable form which can be traded later for perishable goods. It is the "seed corn" of industrial production and without it or something very similar capitalism would be impossible. That is the objective value of Gold. Gold cannot be valued if it doesn't exist. A gold bar in the mind will not buy a single loaf of bread.

No human use of gold gives it objective value.

 

[True Scotsman]

No human use of gold gives it objective value.

Think about that for a minute. If Gold had no objective value then it could not be used as a means of exchange. Here I'll trade you my imaginary gold coin for a meal. Not going to happen. I'll trade you this 1/2 ounce solid gold coin for a meal. You bet.


I'm not sure what you mean by objective value. If you mean intrinsic value then I agree with you. Before something can be a value it has to exists and there must be a valuer to value it. An objective value is something in existence in relation to a consciousness. There can be no such thing as a value without a valuer and no such thing as a value without existence. Both a consciousness and an object of consciousness are required for there to be such a thing as a any value.

A subjective value exists only in the mind. I'm thinking of a cold coin right now. I don't have an actual, objective gold coin in my hand. If I go and try to trade this imaginary gold coin for some other objective value such as food or shelter then I won't get very far. The fact that someone values something does not make it a subjective value. Existing only in the mind does make something subjective. But if the thing does exist independent of the mind then it is an objective value.

You've no doubt heard of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Such a thing would be a tremendous value to someone......if it actually existed. Hence, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow can never be an objective value, only subjective and fun to fantasize about, just like gods.

 

[quatona]

My definition of an objective value is something in reality in relation to a consciousness, something that one acts to gain or keep.

I´m not quite sure I follow your terminology here. Typically, the fact that a value depends "on the relation to a consciousness" is considered the criterium for the value to be subjective.
With your definition of "objective" I wouldn´t even know what to contrast it with - what would render a value subjective?

Gold cannot be valued if it doesn't exist. A gold bar in the mind will not buy a single loaf of bread.

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying "A value that someone gives to something is "objective" when this something exists, and is "subjective" when it doesn´t exist?". Are these the definitions you are using? I have never come across this terminology, I must say.

 

[Colter]

I´m not quite sure I follow your terminology here. Typically, the fact that a value depends "on the relation to a consciousness" is considered the criterium for the value to be subjective.
With your definition of "objective" I wouldn´t even know what to contrast it with - what would render a value subjective?

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying "A value that someone gives to something is "objective" when this something exists, and is "subjective" when it doesn´t exist?". Are these the definitions you are using? I have never come across this terminology, I must say.

It's a Rand-made, intellectual box.

 

[quatona]

It's Randaholic thinking inside of a Rand-made, intellectual box.

This thread is not intended for cheap shots. I´d be grateful if you could try to recall this before hitting the "submit button". Thank you!

 

[Colter]

This thread is not intended for cheap shots. I´d be grateful if you could try to recall this before hitting the "submit button". Thank you!

Alright, I'll keep in mind that your sarcasm is the only acceptable kind, the rest of us will have to adhere to another standard. Its a joke Quatona, lighten up.

The Scotsman's philosophy is based on Rands Atheistic worldview which can be extrapolated from her philosophy.

Ayn Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, begins by embracing the basic fact that existence exists. Reality is, and in the quest to live we must discover reality’s nature and learn to act successfully in it.

"To exist is to be something, to possess a specific identity. This is the Law of Identity: A is A. Facts are facts, independent of any consciousness. No amount of passionate wishing, desperate longing or hopeful pleading can alter the facts. Nor will ignoring or evading the facts erase them: the facts remain, immutable.

In Rand’s philosophy, reality is not to be rewritten or escaped, but, solemnly and proudly, faced. One of her favorite sayings is Francis Bacon’s: “Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.”

Reality — that which exists — has no alternatives, no competitors, nothing “transcending” it. To embrace existence is to reject all notions of the supernatural and the mystical, including God."​

https://www.aynrand.org/ideas/philosophy

 

[Chesterton]

Think about that for a minute. If Gold had no objective value then it could not be used as a means of exchange. Here I'll trade you my imaginary gold coin for a meal. Not going to happen. I'll trade you this 1/2 ounce solid gold coin for a meal. You bet.


I'm not sure what you mean by objective value. If you mean intrinsic value then I agree with you. Before something can be a value it has to exists and there must be a valuer to value it. An objective value is something in existence in relation to a consciousness. There can be no such thing as a value without a valuer and no such thing as a value without existence. Both a consciousness and an object of consciousness are required for there to be such a thing as a any value.

A subjective value exists only in the mind. I'm thinking of a cold coin right now. I don't have an actual, objective gold coin in my hand. If I go and try to trade this imaginary gold coin for some other objective value such as food or shelter then I won't get very far. The fact that someone values something does not make it a subjective value. Existing only in the mind does make something subjective. But if the thing does exist independent of the mind then it is an objective value.

You've no doubt heard of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Such a thing would be a tremendous value to someone......if it actually existed. Hence, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow can never be an objective value, only subjective and fun to fantasize about, just like gods.

What about the consciousness of a South Pacific Islander who'd rather be paid with sea shells than with a piece of metal? And how can a value be objective when it's constantly changing? The price of gold will be different at the time I started typing this than it is at the time I click "submit".

 

[quatona]

Alright, I'll keep in mind that your sarcasm is the only acceptable kind, the rest of us will have to adhere to another standard.

Where did you manage to spot sarcasm?

Its a joke Quatona, lighten up.

I´m afraid this joke must be explained to me. We might just not have the same colour of humour - so we better be careful using it.

The Scotsman's philosophy is based on Rands Atheistic worldview which can be extrapolated from her philosophy.

Ayn Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, begins by embracing the basic fact that existence exists. Reality is, and in the quest to live we must discover reality’s nature and learn to act successfully in it.

"To exist is to be something, to possess a specific identity. This is the Law of Identity: A is A. Facts are facts, independent of any consciousness. No amount of passionate wishing, desperate longing or hopeful pleading can alter the facts. Nor will ignoring or evading the facts erase them: the facts remain, immutable.

In Rand’s philosophy, reality is not to be rewritten or escaped, but, solemnly and proudly, faced. One of her favorite sayings is Francis Bacon’s: “Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.”

Reality — that which exists — has no alternatives, no competitors, nothing “transcending” it. To embrace existence is to reject all notions of the supernatural and the mystical, including God."​

https://www.aynrand.org/ideas/philosophy

Well, I am not a great fan of Ayn Rand (actually I am not a fan of her, at all - I mean, a sentence like "existence exists" already makes me cringe), but I am wondering why you think TrueScotsman´s statement represents Rand´s stance - maybe it does, but this assertion doesn´t seem to be supported by the article you quoted: Neither "value" nor "objective" are even mentioned here; closest to "objective" would be "fact", and about facts we read: "Facts are facts, independent of any consciousness."
Whereas TrueScotsman posits that objective values do depend on there being a consciousness.

 

[True Scotsman]

Alright, I'll keep in mind that your sarcasm is the only acceptable kind, the rest of us will have to adhere to another standard. Its a joke Quatona, lighten up.

The Scotsman's philosophy is based on Rands Atheistic worldview which can be extrapolated from her philosophy.

Ayn Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, begins by embracing the basic fact that existence exists. Reality is, and in the quest to live we must discover reality’s nature and learn to act successfully in it.

"To exist is to be something, to possess a specific identity. This is the Law of Identity: A is A. Facts are facts, independent of any consciousness. No amount of passionate wishing, desperate longing or hopeful pleading can alter the facts. Nor will ignoring or evading the facts erase them: the facts remain, immutable.

In Rand’s philosophy, reality is not to be rewritten or escaped, but, solemnly and proudly, faced. One of her favorite sayings is Francis Bacon’s: “Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.”

Reality — that which exists — has no alternatives, no competitors, nothing “transcending” it. To embrace existence is to reject all notions of the supernatural and the mystical, including God."​

https://www.aynrand.org/ideas/philosophy

My reply had nothing to do with Ayn Rand. She did not invent the term
"objective" although she has a lot to say about objectivity that you would do well to learn and understand.

On a side note, I understand why you reject Objectivism's fundamentals, given the fact that your worldview holds that existence doesn't exist independent of anyone's conscious wishes and that facts are mutable. I wish you would be consistent and stop borrowing, or rather stealing, the very same concepts that you denounce in the act of asserting the truth of your worldview which rejects them. How ironic that you have to borrow from an atheistic philosophy to claim that your beliefs are true.

 

[True Scotsman]

I´m not quite sure I follow your terminology here. Typically, the fact that a value depends "on the relation to a consciousness" is considered the criterium for the value to be subjective.
With your definition of "objective" I wouldn´t even know what to contrast it with - what would render a value subjective?

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying "A value that someone gives to something is "objective" when this something exists, and is "subjective" when it doesn´t exist?". Are these the definitions you are using? I have never come across this terminology, I must say.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner quatona. My internet service has been down.

Let me see if I can make what I am saying more concrete for you. I am a professional woodworker. My workshop is an objective value. The dream shop I hope to build when I have the time and money is a subjective value. It is a value in that it inspires me to work hard and gives me a goal to shoot for. It is subjective in that it doesn't exist, yet, in reality but only in my imagination. Another example would be a song in the songwriters head that he hasn't put down on paper or played on an instrument.

An objective value requires two things: A valuer(subject of consciousness) and something that exists to value (object of consciousness). It is from this subject/ object relationship that the term "objective" comes from. Objective values are things like trees, food, flowers, music, art, automobiles, woodworking shops, and money. Subjective values are things like plans, hopes, dreams, wishes, preferences or tastes. A preference for the taste of Apple pie is a subjective value while the actual pie is an objective value.

 

[True Scotsman]

What about the consciousness of a South Pacific Islander who'd rather be paid with sea shells than with a piece of metal? And how can a value be objective when it's constantly changing? The price of gold will be different at the time I started typing this than it is at the time I click "submit".

If the seashell he would like to be paid with exists in reality then it is an objective value. That is what the word "objective" means, to be the object of a consciousness as opposed to the subject.

 

[quatona]

Thanks for your response, True Scotsman.
I think I did and do understand what you are saying. I´d paraphrase it as "Existing things have objective value (provided they are observed), things that don´t exist don´t."
Would that be fair?

Now, the problem I have is: This doesn´t appear anywhere close to the standard use of "objective" (vs. "subjective"). Granted, everyone is free to use their private definition of words...but this doesn´t seem to help successful communication.

Usually, in these contexts, "objective" is used in the meaning of "independent of an observer", and your definition ("to a consciousness") downright makes it dependent on an observer.

In any case, I was asking for "objective value" in the traditional definition of these words - so apparently we are talking past each other when you apply different definitions than I do.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner quatona. My internet service has been down.

Let me see if I can make what I am saying more concrete for you. I am a professional woodworker. My workshop is an objective value. The dream shop I hope to build when I have the time and money is a subjective value. It is a value in that it inspires me to work hard and gives me a goal to shoot for. It is subjective in that it doesn't exist, yet, in reality but only in my imagination. Another example would be a song in the songwriters head that he hasn't put down on paper or played on an instrument.

An objective value requires two things: A valuer(subject of consciousness) and something that exists to value (object of consciousness). It is from this subject/ object relationship that the term "objective" comes from. Objective values are things like trees, food, flowers, music, art, automobiles, woodworking shops, and money. Subjective values are things like plans, hopes, dreams, wishes, preferences or tastes.

Thanks for your response, True Scotsman.
I think I did and do understand what you are saying. I´d paraphrase it as "Existing things have objective value (provided they are observed), things that don´t exist don´t."
Would that be fair?

Now, the problem I have is: This doesn´t appear anywhere close to the standard use of "objective" (vs. "subjective"). Granted, everyone is free to use their private definition of words...but this doesn´t seem to help successful communication.

Usually, in these contexts, "objective" is used in the meaning of "independent of an observer", and your definition ("to a consciousness") downright makes it dependent on an observer.

In any case, I was asking for "objective value" in the traditional definition of these words - so apparently we are talking past each other when you apply different definitions than I do.

Objective values are things like trees, food, flowers, music, art, automobiles, woodworking shops, and money. Subjective values are things like plans, hopes, dreams, wishes, preferences or tastes.

I could follow you if you said that trees etc. exist objectively and plans etc. exist subjectively.
However, if I´d were hard pressed to decide whether "value" belongs in the first category (physically existing things like trees) or in the second category (preferences, tastes etc. I´d certainly put it in the latter.

I could easily do with "preference" the same you did with "values" :
An objective preference requires two things: A preferencer (subject of consciousness) and something that exists to be preferenced (object of consciousness).
Or with "taste":
An objective taste requires two things: A taster (subject of consciousness) and something that exists to be tasted (object of consciousness).

Would you agree? Why? Why not?

A preference for the taste of Apple pie is a subjective value while the actual pie is an objective value.

I´m confused, sorry. This seems to be a completely different way of distinction than you proposed before. The apple pie exists, the consciousness (valuer) is there, and at the very moment he values the apple pie you now call this value "subjective".

Anyway: Would that be similar to, say, subjective temperature (I feel cold) vs. objective temperatur (X°Celsius)?
So back to my original question:
What is the objective value of apple pie? And what is the objective method of measuring objective values?

 

[Chesterton]

If the seashell he would like to be paid with exists in reality then it is an objective value. That is what the word "objective" means, to be the object of a consciousness as opposed to the subject.

I agree with quatona here. You're saying that value is "objective" because it's the object of a consciousness, but you've conceded that consciousness is subjective (has tastes and preferences as you said).

You're stranded on the proverbial desert island and haven't had a sip of water for two weeks. Someone appears and offers you a choice of only one: either a pound of gold or a glass of water. That gold would have zero value to you, being as it is relative to (subject to) the situation.

 

[Aldebaran]

I agree with quatona here. You're saying that value is "objective" because it's the object of a consciousness, but you've conceded that consciousness is subjective (has tastes and preferences as you said).

You're stranded on the proverbial desert island and haven't had a sip of water for two weeks. Someone appears and offers you a choice of only one: either a pound of gold or a glass of water. That gold would have zero value to you, being as it is relative to (subject to) the situation.

Another term for this would be Circumstancial Priority. If the glass of water wasn't needed quite so badly (more was on the way in a few minutes), then the pound of gold would have more value because he know someone will accept it once he's off the island.

Much of what is "valuable" is dependent on immediate circumstances, along with their severity.

 

[Chesterton]

Another term for this would be Circumstancial Priority. If the glass of water wasn't needed quite so badly (more was on the way in a few minutes), then the pound of gold would have more value because he know someone will accept it once he's off the island.

Much of what is "valuable" is dependent on immediate circumstances, along with their severity.

As I said in my first post, there's just a subjective value, relative to other things. But I didn't say he was ever getting off the island. He's dying. As another poster recently pointed out in this forum, we're all dying.

 

[Aldebaran]

As I said in my first post, there's just a subjective value, relative to other things. But I didn't say he was ever getting off the island. He's dying. As another poster recently pointed out in this forum, we're all dying.

Well, in that case the water (along with food) would be all he's want. Nothing of monetary value to be used with the outside world would be of any value to him, no matter how rare. If he had any hope of rescue, then it'd be a different story.

 

[Loudmouth]

What´s the objective value of gold?

79, or 196.967.

Chemists and physicists will get a giggle out of it.