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Deamiter

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Wow. HSetterfield brings up a telescope at New Hope Christian Schools as evidence that scientists agree with her?

So you've got some amateur scientists and a statistician who are actively looking for anything to support their interpretation of Genesis being supported by creationist schools... and that's supposed to be evidence that the scientific community agrees with this?

As a studying physicsist I too find the ideas fascinating. I also find the evidence for them lacking as does every professor (even creationist ones) I've ever discussed this matter with.
 
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busterdog

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Wow. HSetterfield brings up a telescope at New Hope Christian Schools as evidence that scientists agree with her?

So you've got some amateur scientists and a statistician who are actively looking for anything to support their interpretation of Genesis being supported by creationist schools... and that's supposed to be evidence that the scientific community agrees with this?

As a studying physicsist I too find the ideas fascinating. I also find the evidence for them lacking as does every professor (even creationist ones) I've ever discussed this matter with.

Try reading your post and pretend that you want to make fun of it and use it to make yourself look like an idiot.

Then you will have a better idea of how far you yourself have strayed from grace and fairness.
 
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busterdog

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Perhaps you should try checking out the authors he mentioned in #56 as I'm doing now, and get around to refuting those, instead of getting angry that he happened to call your hero a crank and fraud.

So grace among Christians is meant for whom? Just "right thinking" Christians?

Who is there to refute anything with? One must be heard to be able to refute.
 
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shernren

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So grace among Christians is meant for whom? Just "right thinking" Christians?

Who is there to refute anything with? One must be heard to be able to refute.
You're a lawyer, right? Imagine that one day a client walks in and asks you to defend him on a case. You look at the evidence and the details, and just as you're formulating a plan, he goes "Hey I have a brilliant idea. Why don't I defend myself using that thing about Double Jeopardy?" He explains his idea, and for a while it even makes sense. But hey, you're a good lawyer, and you soon realize that there are some holes and flaws that simply aren't apparent to someone who hasn't been practicing law for decades. So you try to tell him. "Well, you're not really under the stipulation of that particular clause - good try though", or "If the other side is experienced like me they'd tear us apart in ten minutes by saying such-and-such" etc. And so he listens - and then he answers by muddling up even more laws and clauses and case studies to prove his point.

If, after umpteen explanations, he says "Look, I'm a lawyer and I know how this stuff works," wouldn't you at some point resort to calling him a crank and a fraud?

That is essentially what has happened with KerrMetric. As a layperson in astrophysics I'm justified to doubt, and nothing more. I look at papers like these: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0606/0606294.pdf , and I can see that the idea is at best sidelined and at worst already rejected by the astrophysical community, and with probably good reasons. I look at how Tifft seems to have done nothing (as far as I'm aware) with the 2dF Galaxy Redshift Survey ( http://magnum.anu.edu.au/~TDFgg/ ), with notable bias for intrinsic quantized redshift ( http://www.astro.bas.bg/galaxies/galaxies_files/voids.html, explaining how now-accepted superclusters and voids explain the data which Tifft was trying to explain with quantization). When I see his ideas being cited next to those of Halton Arp (against whom the QSO papers are painfully relevant) and on the same site as Tom Van Flandern (debunked e.g. here: http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2000/07/06/einstein/print.html ), I can be quite sure that something is wrong with how Tifft is being cited even if he himself is on to something.

As a layperson I am in a place to doubt my judgment. But as someone involved in the actual area of course KerrMetric will have strong feelings about this, just as you would if someone mucked around with law and then said you were wrong just because he doesn't understand why he is. Is his language justified? I don't know. Calling someone a crank and a fraud is downright insulting but it's really not half as bad as implying that some aren't Christians or hinting with phrases like "why gamble all of eternity" in a Christian-only forum.

But I can see why he feels the way he feels (even if I can't agree with the way he expressed it), and if you want to prove him wrong about Setterfield, you'd better be able to do it concretely. So far what I see from his physical theories is a lot of ad hoc declarations as to what stays constant and what doesn't. I can understand why his theoretical framework would change c and h, but G as well - to say nothing of the problematic construct of changing dimensional constants at all (which I can easily change by measuring everything in feet rather than meters), rather than changing dimensionless constants. (A particular question: what experimental setups showed a decreasing value of h?)

Like it or not, there will always be people who voice their opinion unfavorably. If you think I'm being partisan in saying you should respond to KerrMetric with substance rather than a demand for an apology, you're probably right. But the utterly pragmatic thing to do (besides putting him on ignore, if you're so inclined) is to shut him up not with hot-headed words of your own but with substance.
 
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Deamiter

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Try reading your post and pretend that you want to make fun of it and use it to make yourself look like an idiot.

Then you will have a better idea of how far you yourself have strayed from grace and fairness.
HSetterfield is trying to portray her husband as an expert in the field. It seems rather pertinant to point out that teaching astronomy at a creationist school (and having the telescope named after one) does not in any way support such a claim. Neither does visits from scientists -- creationist or otherwise.

What would YOU consider to be an indication of professional qualification? Does B. Setterfield meet your standard?
 
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HSetterfield

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This is probably my last post here, as other activities have a much higher priority. However I would like to point out that after a number of posts of slander, KerrMetric has not bothered to substantiate what he said about Barry's work or Barry himself. That is telling.

And secondly, I mentioned the observatory 'just for the bananas of it' and not as any indication of anything else.

If anyone has anything substantive to say regarding the quality of Barry's work, please feel free to email either of us at barry@setterfield.org.

thank you.
 
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KerrMetric

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More maliciousness.

Arp too? He is a fraud. Must have bribed someone at the Max Planck Institute? Magueijo is what, just a young turk.


No, Alton Arp is a bitter old man who long ago pigeon holed himself into obscurity.

Magueijo, a man I have talked to, is absolutely appalled that his work on inflationary mechanisms and varying c are being utilised in a totally incorrect manner by Creationists.

The problem is that 99.9% of the Creationist community have zero knowledge of theoretical physics and so they jump on the buzzwords (varying speed of light) and think this must be related to or support for the silliness Setterfield put forth.

That's what you get when lay people and cranks try to do or understand physics - silliness!
 
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busterdog

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nice way to avoid the question.

Why don't you ask him first why he believes that is a good and sufficient answer.

Grace means reading in what is missing when you can or asking whether you might be missing something the writer had in mind.
 
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Servant222

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I'd be interested in just a little more background here from those with more knowledge- how many different lines of independent evidence are there in the field of astronomy that the Universe is very old?

First, of course, the notion that light from distant stars, if it travels at a constant speed, takes millions of years to reach us.

Second, that the redshift indicates that the Universe is expanding, and that the farther away a star is, the greater is the red shift.

Is it pulsars that allow us to independently gauge the distance to stars, and therefore allow us to determine how long it has taken for light to come to us from distant stellar bodies?

Another question I have: is there any mention in the Bible of other stellar objects, besides stars? Like, does the Bible even obliquely mention or describe galaxies, quasars, etc.

I realize that this undoubtedly has been covered here a thousand times (what hasn't), so please bear with me if I'm asking for a repeat of what some of you have answered before.
 
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KerrMetric

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KerrMetric
You are something else!

1. You at least should spell Roemer right.

Since I don't have a o with a slash through it. I used the anglicised Romer instead of the incorrect Roemer.

2. What was fraudulent about Barry's presentation?

Inventing the Romer value at odds with the modern day interpretation of Romer's work. A value on which his entire "work" depends for its inference.

Plus being a total incompetent at high school level statistics. r values of 1 to 7 places my backside. That's laughable.

Basically - he cooked the data and cherry picked the values used. Quite simply worthless crap.

3. Other physicists seem to be interested in Barry's work and we even know their names, unlike who you are with your vitriolic comments.

No real academic physicists at renowned research institutions are interested in poor high school level quality work that is nothing but a piece of fudging.

4. You are calling me a liar about men coming to talk to Barry. OK, that's your thing. In the meantime, I have had to postpone some visits because we try to limit our visitors to two sets a month. I don't really care if you believe me or not, actually. I know what the reality is here.

No - I am saying no renowned or competent academic research physicists are calling.

5. Just for the bananas of it, here is the link to the telescope that bears his name and was declared by the university folks who visited to be the best one in Oregon -- and Barry is the astronomer who teaches at the observatory: http://www.newhopechristian.net/Observatory/default.asp

Irrelevant. Running a small amateur scope at a Christian High school does not make you an astronomer.

Can you please tell me where Barry got a PhD in astronomy or physics from?

6. Again, you have accused Barry of blatent fraud. Please inform us as to what you are referring to and which paper you are referring to.

You know darn well I am referring to the well known usage of a false Romer value which completely dominates the results in his c decay claim.

7. Then again you said Barry doctored the data. You are making some serious accusations and it is not unreasonable of me, I don't think, to ask you to back them up with something more than your verbiage.

Don't act surprised. Barry Setterfield's name is mud in not only the real science community (for those who have even heard of this) but many in the Creationist community for this fraud.



Back up what you are accusing him of, please, or stop the slander.

I just invite people to Google this. This has been known for years.
 
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KerrMetric

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to HSetterfield:

Again could you please list:

The peer reviewed journal papers in physics and astronomy that Barry has authored?

Specifically any in ApJ, AJ, MNRAS or Physics Letters?

Could you repeat this for Lambert Dolphin on these Creation/Evolution type topics?


Could you name us any collaborators at renowned academic universities (i.e Harvard, Cambridge, Cal Tech, Texas, UCLA, ANU etc etc) type schools?

Can you name any such people who take this c decay "work" of Barry's in the least bit seriously?

Thanks.
 
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KerrMetric

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I'd be interested in just a little more background here from those with more knowledge- how many different lines of independent evidence are there in the field of astronomy that the Universe is very old?

Too many to list in a few minutes. If you really are interested I'll provide a partial list later.


Is it pulsars that allow us to independently gauge the distance to stars, and therefore allow us to determine how long it has taken for light to come to us from distant stellar bodies?

No.


Another question I have: is there any mention in the Bible of other stellar objects, besides stars? Like, does the Bible even obliquely mention or describe galaxies, quasars, etc.

Of course not.
 
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Servant222

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Why don't you ask him first why he believes that is a good and sufficient answer.

Grace means reading in what is missing when you can or asking whether you might be missing something the writer had in mind.


This illustrates a rather common problem with forums- you can't see a person's facial expressions, or appreciate the tone that is being used when an answer is given, and therefore when a light-hearted comment, not meant to seriously address the issue under discussion, is provided.

The little Smilies help convey emotion, but nowhere near as well as a face to face encounter. I guess that is why some believe that forums will never come close to Bible studies for studying the Word- personally, I like the fact that forums provide instant communication from a world-wide audience, and can tap into an incredible depth of knowledge.

But we do need to be aware of a Forum discussion's limitations so that we don't unwittingly take offense, where none was intended.

But I seriously digress..... I apologize to those with a more focussed attitude. Back to Red Shift.
 
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KerrMetric

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I'll post a list later.

An old universe is the only interpretation that makes sense from a physics standpoint UNLESS you assume a magic wand was waved to make it appear old.

The lines of evidence are myriad in their nature - though obviously many are interconnected to varying degrees.

What is also interesting is that many of them were predicted prior to observations that can now be performed with modern equipment.
 
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