She lied about her virginity,he's devasted

[MacFall]

Do we know if the girl is going to lie again about other things?

Yes, we do. We know she will. Because she is human, like everyfreakingone else.

 

[K9_Trainer]

My apologies for using such,I was trying to be as clear as possible without being vulgar.Thanks for highlighting.

Problem in this case is,it's not like the woman repented,she was found out not to be what she claimed to be.

Might be a bit late on this, but I find the odometer comparison offensive as well, as a woman. Sex does not turn a person into something they are not, it doesn't change their personality, or value. It's an activity. Women are not like cars where the "mileage" can influence the value. And if a man decides not to date a woman because she has "mileage", then that's disgusting and he needs to grow up and learn to view women as humans and not objects.

What's done in the hypothetical woman's past is done. If she repented, why in the world does it matter? If she was sincerely worried that Tim was going to dump her and abandon an otherwise happy, healthy, stable relationship over her virginity, something that has no bearing on who she is as a person, then I honestly can't blame her. Regardless it was a bad decision to lie but also a bad decision because now she's stuck with somebody she's afraid to be herself around because she can't trust him to love and accept ALL of her.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

And how much of this is the fault of the guy for making such a big deal about something so minor in the first place that she felt compelled vto lie?

 

[Niels]

That's not the question. Nor is the question whether he had a right to leave. Even if he did, he has a clear obligation to forgive which frankly trumps every last one of his rights. God has the right to damn every one of us. But He does not. He forgives us. Christ had the right to rise up and destroy His murderers. But He did not - He forgave them. Are we or are we not followers of Christ?

I agree that forgiveness does not necessarily preclude discontinuing a relationship. But a relationship should never be ended over an offense, no matter how grievous the offense. It should only be ended when it is clearly better for the spiritual welfare of both parties that it should end, as in cases wherein one party is an unrepentant abuser. But repentance changes everything. Therefore I repeat my original post: if she was repentant, then he has an obligation as a follower of Christ to forgive her and to work with her towards the restoration of trust, regardless of whether or not he has the "right" to divorce her.

And I hope nobody here will pretend that they have not had to be confronted with sin about which they had lied, in order to be led into repentance in their own lives. We all do that. Even if we never speak the lie out loud. We lie to ourselves and from God, even though He already knows about our sin, rather than face it. So the woman in this scenario lied about her sin. Conclusion: she is human. Tim should forgive his fellow fallen creature as his Most High God has forgiven him.

Of all the things to take out of context, why that sentence? I wrote it because it sounded like Tamara might be criticizing Tim's personal and subjective preference from the get-go (a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum on CF). Rather, she thinks the man bullied the woman into marriage, and that the woman's dishonesty is therefore the man's fault. It is somewhat odd that the woman felt the need to lie. Perhaps there was a kind of coercion on Tim's part, but I get a somewhat different impression. One of an obsessed and dishonest woman willing to say anything to hook a man who otherwise might not be into her. Reverse the sexes, perhaps an obsessed and dishonest man who says anything to hook a woman, and it would seem just as rotten to me.

Have any of us suggested that Tim shouldn't forgive her? If we have, then I must've missed those posts. Of course he should forgive, but this isn't the woman he married. She lured him with dishonesty. Telling him precisely what he wanted to hear, in an effort to mislead. In this sense, the marriage was never real to begin with. It's well within Tim's right to have it annulled. He should forgive, forget, and hopefully find somebody who can be honest with him. Hopefully, the woman will find somebody she can be honest with as well. Or, if Tim really is the monster that some of you are making him out to be, a man who doesn't make her feel like she has to be dishonest.

 

[shinkou]

I will answer the question from before. If I married someone and found out later he is a hitman, had 5 children from a previous marriage, and owed $200,000 in debt, then as a Christian it would still be sinful to divorce him. Probably I would divorce him, then I would ask forgiveness from God about that. I would not divorce him because of the debt, not because of the children, but because he is a hitman and it would make me feel fear.

But in this case it is still a sin. It is my responsibility to try and find out these kind of things before I marry. However, I do not believe that I would have no idea about he is a hitman. I think that would not be an easy secret to keep, and I would not marry someone quick enough to not realize he has something very strange about his life. The truth is God said very clearly the way that divorce is OK. There is only 1 way it is OK. That is adultery in the marriage.

You said that God does not make people keep a promise that came from lies or deceit. You are wrong. Someone already posted the example about the Israelites having to keep their promise before when the Gideonites lied to them. Even it was a promise made on a lie, it was kept. Even God kept his promise to Abraham and made Hagar's son become great even though it was not the promise God intended.

God keeps his promises and expects us to as well. Breaking a promise in any kind of situation is a sin. I can understand why Tim might want to break this promise. I can even forgive him about that. But it is still a sin and he will have to ask God for forgiveness if he decides to do that. Choosing to divorce is choosing to sin. I do not know how easily that will be forgiven. I am not sure it can be easy to be really repentant about a sin you choose to do probably without regret.

That is why marriage is important and it is important to make sure we marry the right person for us. God wants us to marry only one person for our whole life. If we married a liar that we cannot trust, that is our fault. You can call me over-spiritualized. I am following the Bible as it very clearly says in this situation. Show me the verse that shows divorce is OK for another reason than adultery. I can show you the verse that says it is not. I think you cannot show me the one that is.

 

[dvanderdeen]

I know I said I was done with this, but I feel one more thing really needs to be said. All of you who are saying it is the lie not the virginity thing are sorry to say full of BS. If the virginity is a non-issue, and it is only the lie, then let's take a look at what that means.

Alright we established that the lie makes it a matter of a lack of trust. The fact that it was about virginity is not important. That now means that we cannot say it was a big lie. The content of the lie doesn't matter. So it is on par with any lie, such as if she were to have told them on Friday nights she goes shopping every night when really she has been going out with her girlfriends. Or if she had told him that she likes his singing, but she actually secretly hates it. Or if she told him she never goes has been outside of her country, but she actually did travel outside of it once. Or if she told him she never ate sweet cereal in her life, but actually she loved it as a kid. All of these things make her a liar. For some reason she did not trust him enough to tell the truth, or she just decided not to tell him the truth. By the argument that you all are making, he should instantly divorce her. She is a liar. She is not who she said she was. He cannot trust her.

How many of you can honestly say that for those things your first instinct would be to say: "The marriage is not real! They are not married, they can get an annulement or a divorce!" I am willing to bet that no one would tell him that if he was upset because she actually liked sweet cereals when she was a kid and she lied about it. You'd more than likely say: "Grow up and stop being a baby. Get over it. It's no big deal."

You all care about the content of the lie. It is an issue to you. You all think it is a big thing. If she lied about something you consider small you would not care. Don't sit there all high and mighty claiming: "It's the lie! Only the lie!" when it clearly is not. The content matters to every single person here that is defending Tim. Her virginty matters to you as much as it matters to him and frankly speaking it shouldn't. This has nothing to do with trust. It has everything to do with the fact that she lied about something you think is a big deal. Not a single person who has defended Tim has responded to posts asking about what their relationship was like and if she was generally good and honest with him. You all immediately condemn her because she lied about virginity. That is a double standard right there people and you all need to face it. Maybe you had yourself convinced you really thought it was the lie. Now I hope you can see it was more than that.

Also added to Shinkou's example, Adam and Eve tried that it didn't work for them. He told God it was Eve's fault and she pinned it on the serpent. God still punnished them and held them responsible even though they were each lied to.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

lol hardly, I don't care if a girl's a virgin or not. It's absolutely the lie, there are things you can easily put off as white lies; such as those other scenarios you've pointed out.

Do you really think I'm not going to find out that you're not a virgin!? Am I that gullible, and are you that willing to blatantly lie to me without blinking an eye!? It's not the content, it's the act. You're clearly marking me in as a moron if you do this to me.

You, again, don't deserve me.

 

[dvanderdeen]

lol hardly, I don't care if a girl's a virgin or not. It's absolutely the lie, there are things you can easily put off as white lies; such as those other scenarios you've pointed out.

Do you really think I'm not going to find out that you're not a virgin!? Am I that gullible, and are you that willing to blatantly lie to me without blinking an eye!? It's not the content, it's the act. You're clearly marking me in as a moron if you do this to me.

You, again, don't deserve me.

Once again you prove my point. You call the others white lies you don't care about. But this one is a big deal and you are going to find out. The content of the lie matters to you. You care she lied about not being a virgin. If it is just the lie, then all lies should matter equally. All of them make her a liar. All of them make her a deciever, yet for some reason the one about being a virgin is a big deal.

I can't make it any clearer than this: "I used to think she is a person that doesn't like sweet cereals. Now I know she does. Who cares?" vs. "I used to think she was a virgin, now I know she wasn't. Divorce!"

What's the difference? Only difference is the content of the lie.

 

[K9_Trainer]

Really I think a part of the issue here is a lack of information.

We hardly have enough background about the individuals and the relationship to truly know what was going on and make a judgement.

Tim may have over reacted, that's very possible. Especially if it's just this one instance of lying because she was afraid he would reject her. Lack of virginity is not the end of the world, or the relationship. But the breakdown in communication will be if they don't get that sorted out. Doesn't matter what the lie is about. If your partner feels pressured to give you certain answers because he/she is afraid you will reject him/her, that's a problem. Maybe Tim made a big deal out of virginity while they were dating and said things that were hurtful to women who have had sex. We don't know this. Maybe she knew Tim didn't care about her sexual past, but she thought telling him she was a virgin was what he wanted to hear anyway, was somehow preferred over not. We don't know this either. And even further, we also don't know whether there were other sketchy things this girl has done that Tim has found out about or caught on to that lead him to react the way he did.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Telling somebody they don't like sugar cereal is far from the point of saying you're a virgin (holding that lie until he finds out and hope for the best), it's like comparing apples to oranges; so no, there is no correlation there.

The act is a lie, yes, but that's like saying, well since 1+2=3, 2+4=8, because they're both Math... I don't know where you get your logic from, but it's not correct.

She could do a variety of things which would lose my trust in her, she could be seeing other guys (just as a friend at first, but flirting with them [as this is a woman whom has easily made her way through many guys] further along the way) and when I ask she says it's nothing, just two friends having a good time; well, she's obviously not being honest about the way she's acting. Acting. People act. Actions have consequences.

 

[dvanderdeen]

Telling somebody they don't like sugar cereal is far from the point of saying you're not a virgin, it's like comparing apples to oranges; so no, there is no correlation there.

The act is a lie, yes, but that's like saying, well since 1+2=3, 2+4=8, because they're both Math... I don't know where you get your logic from, but it's not correct.

She could do a variety of things which would lose my trust in her, she could be seeing other guys (just as a friend at first, but flirting with them [as this is a woman whom has easily made her way through many guys] further along the way) and when I ask she says it's nothing, just two friends having a good time; well, she's obviously not being honest about the way she's acting. Acting. People act. Actions have consequences.

Exactly my point. All these people are saying it's the lie. The fact that it is about virginity doesn't matter. Yet you are saying right here that the fact it is about virginity does matter. You keep try to say I am wrong, but agree with me in your post. It is the content of the lie that matters to people here. You are willing to condemn their entire marriage for something that she did in the past before she even knew the guy. It's not like she was cheating on him when they were dating. It's not like she was doing all kinds of things behind his back when they were together. You are condemning their entire marriage and saying they can have no trust based on something that happened before they knew each other without having any idea of what their relationship was like when they did know each other. Is there any evidence of betrayal at all when they were together that has posted? There is absolutely none. Yet so many people are screaming for divorce. Because they care she lied about being a virgin because lying about being a virgin apparently is enough evidence that you can't trust someone at all completely on it's own. If that is all the evidence we need to condemn someone, I sure would hate to be on trial for a crime with Jurors that think like that. Character and relationship matter to. You have no information about those things but are awfully quick to condemn.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Really I think a part of the issue here is a lack of information.

We hardly have enough background about the individuals and the relationship to truly know what was going on and make a judgement.

Tim may have over reacted, that's very possible. Especially if it's just this one instance of lying because she was afraid he would reject her. Lack of virginity is not the end of the world, or the relationship. But the breakdown in communication will be if they don't get that sorted out. Doesn't matter what the lie is about. If your partner feels pressured to give you certain answers because he/she is afraid you will reject him/her, that's a problem. Maybe Tim made a big deal out of virginity while they were dating and said things that were hurtful to women who have had sex. We don't know this. Maybe she knew Tim didn't care about her sexual past, but she thought telling him she was a virgin was what he wanted to hear anyway, was somehow preferred over not. We don't know this either. And even further, we also don't know whether there were other sketchy things this girl has done that Tim has found out about or caught on to that lead him to react the way he did.

so you're saying it's okay to be deceitful, as long as you get the guy you wanted!? Is that how you want to be treated?

 

[shinkou]

so you're saying it's okay to be deceitful, as long as you get the guy you wanted!? Is that how you want to be treated?

No one is saying it is OK. Everyone agrees it was wrong. We are saying you cannot condemn an entire relationship based on one mistake. Are you saying it is OK for your wife to hold something you did in your past against you forever because you made one mistake? Is that how you want to be treated?

 

[Nom De Guerre]

Exactly my point. All these people are saying it's the lie. The fact that it is about virginity doesn't matter. Yet you are saying right here that the fact it is about virginity does matter. You keep try to say I am wrong, but agree with me in your post. It is the content of the lie that matters to people here. You are willing to condemn their entire marriage for something that she did in the past before she even knew the guy. It's not like she was cheating on him when they were dating. It's not like she was doing all kinds of things behind his back when they were together. You are condemning their entire marriage and saying they can have no trust based on something that happened before they knew each other without having any idea of what their relationship was like when they did know each other. Is there any evidence of betrayal at all when they were together that has posted? There is absolutely none. Yet so many people are screaming for divorce. Because they care she lied about being a virgin because lying about being a virgin apparently is enough evidence that you can't trust someone at all completely on it's own. If that is all the evidence we need to condemn someone, I sure would hate to be on trial for a crime with Jurors that think like that. Character and relationship matter to. You have no information about those things but are awfully quick to condemn.

Look, I'm gonna lay this out one more time for you... I really hope you get it.

I don't care if she's not a virgin, the problem lay with the fact that she's willing to lie to me, and keep holding that lie as long as possible; if she's willing to lie about something as easy to find out as 'virginity' then, what else has she been lying about that I couldn't easily find out?

Do you get the picture? Please, just stop. You're making me look pretty intelligent here.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

No one is saying it is OK. Everyone agrees it was wrong. We are saying you cannot condemn an entire relationship based on one mistake. Are you saying it is OK for your wife to hold something you did in your past against you forever because you made one mistake? Is that how you want to be treated?

I am willing to put all of my mistakes on the table and say, look, take me as I am, or don't; in fact, I did this with Sieben, I told her everything that I am into and made sure she didn't end up finding out later and hate me for it. I was/am willing to accept her judgement on it. I want to be treated with the same respect I give out, so yes, I do want to be judged on my past and present; it's those things which make me who I am. If you don't like it, fine; but at least I took the steps to ensure you were notified and I wasn't hiding anything.

 

[Sketcher]

He wouldn't be a bad guy for lying about his past.

So cutting out the other BS which is nothing but an attempt to dodge the question, you have no problem with a man lying to a woman in a relationship in order to get her to marry him. Is that your final answer?

 

[yam]

wow,this is fraud. I feel bad for your friend. I find it hard to believe that he did not investigate her or see the signal that she was just pretending. Did he get to know this girl well because you cannot hide your past from people. Did he talk to her family , friends, facebook or get counseling from their church pastor?

 

[Blackwater Babe]

I'd like to point out that

he is a hitman, had 5 children from a previous marriage, and owed $200,000 in debt,

are hardly comparable to whther one is a virgin or not.

 

[K9_Trainer]

so you're saying it's okay to be deceitful, as long as you get the guy you wanted!? Is that how you want to be treated?

I've said multiple times in this thread that lying is always wrong.

I'm trying to emphasize being understanding with other people instead of automatically condemning. Maybe I'm just different from other people here, idk. But one lie is not the end of the world to me, especially if there were insecurities that caused them to tell it, even more so if I'm the one that caused those insecurities. In no way does having a justification make it right.

But the fact is, people lie. It doesn't mean everybody is a compulsive liar who can't tell the truth, or lies just for fun. It doesn't mean that you've been totally deceived and you no longer know who you're talking to. You just have to try to understand why they did it, forgive them, and move on while reassuring them that you love them and they don't have to lie to you.

You all are just getting way too bent out of shape over what appears to be a hypothetical situation that you don't even know all the details to.

 

[Nom De Guerre]

I've said multiple times in this thread that lying is always wrong.

I'm trying to emphasize being understanding with other people instead of automatically condemning. Maybe I'm just different from other people here, idk. But one lie is not the end of the world to me, especially if there were insecurities that caused them to tell it, even more so if I'm the one that caused those insecurities. In no way does having a justification make it right.

But the fact is, people lie. It doesn't mean everybody is a compulsive liar who can't tell the truth, or lies just for fun. It doesn't mean that you've been totally deceived and you no longer know who you're talking to. You just have to try to understand why they did it, forgive them, and move on while reassuring them that you love them and they don't have to lie to you.

You all are just getting way too bent out of shape over what appears to be a hypothetical situation that you don't even know all the details to.

I agree with you in that communication is key, and being understanding is a huge part of love; and agreed that this could be a hypothetical situation. I'm stating my point of view on it, and people opposed it claiming I was full of nonsense.

I do believe that being deceitful is harmful though, and it would absolutely break my trust; I can only imagine what that would be like if the shoe was on the other foot (per se). What if it was a guy that lied to you about something that broke your trust? Maybe you'd react quite differently than I would, fair enough.

I am going to keep to what I believe to be true for me.