Sharing the Word...

[EastCoastRemnant]

My wife and I had a Bible study at our place last night with the couple from next door and their friends. They are Sunday keepers and appeared interested in this Sabbath thing that was made known to them by us in our talks with them.

My wife and I took this opportunity very seriously and had prepared quite alot of Biblical 'crib' notes to have on hand to use in our discussion. Beyond their initial questions of 'is the keeping of the Sabbath salvational', which we showed them Biblically that it was, as are all the Commandments, they didn't seem real interested in doing an actual study but were using a lot of 'I think', or 'I want' or 'I believe' statements instead of giving scripture. They did refer to a couple of the writings of Paul where he say we are not judge another in holy days etc and we explained that,yes, we are not to judge, that is God's job but that the verse doesn't sanctify or declare Sunday to be the new day of worship. We read to them dozens of scriptures that were either, God said, Jesus said,regarding the keeping of the commandments but they were not swayed in their understanding. The amount of evidence that we presented from the Bible to them was staggering in comparison to what they were refering to but yet they were not moved. Coupled with what we gave them scriptually, we also had historic record from the first century onward showing that the early Christians kept Sabbath up until and beyond when Constantine decreed it illegal to do so.


I guess my confusion/frustration/sadness is that how can someone that says they are all about following the truth when presented, can be so, almost stiff necked, when it is shown them?? I can only speak for myself and my wife but we had far less 'evidence' shown to us and immediately recognized it as the truth and moved forward in it...

How can people be so blinded by tradition and delusion and stubborness??

 

[doc8645]

I applaud your efforts, but some just want to be known as Christians as long as it dosen't inconveniece them or there current lifestyle, or status with others. All you can do is try.

Blessings
doc8645

 

[MidnightCry]

I guess my confusion/frustration/sadness is that how can someone that says they are all about following the truth when presented, can be so, almost stiff necked, when it is shown them?? I can only speak for myself and my wife but we had far less 'evidence' shown to us and immediately recognized it as the truth and moved forward in it...

How can people be so blinded by tradition and delusion and stubborness??

Many people only believe what they want to believe. Like the other post said, if it causes an inconvenience or they are afraid what people will say, they will not accept truth. Also, many people will continue traditions and beliefs instead of doing research and studying a truth for themselves.

I have noticed that this happens when other truths are presented as well, not just the Sabbath.

 

[k4c]

My wife and I had a Bible study at our place last night with the couple from next door and their friends. They are Sunday keepers and appeared interested in this Sabbath thing that was made known to them by us in our talks with them.

My wife and I took this opportunity very seriously and had prepared quite alot of Biblical 'crib' notes to have on hand to use in our discussion. Beyond their initial questions of 'is the keeping of the Sabbath salvational', which we showed them Biblically that it was, as are all the Commandments, they didn't seem real interested in doing an actual study but were using a lot of 'I think', or 'I want' or 'I believe' statements instead of giving scripture. They did refer to a couple of the writings of Paul where he say we are not judge another in holy days etc and we explained that,yes, we are not to judge, that is God's job but that the verse doesn't sanctify or declare Sunday to be the new day of worship. We read to them dozens of scriptures that were either, God said, Jesus said,regarding the keeping of the commandments but they were not swayed in their understanding. The amount of evidence that we presented from the Bible to them was staggering in comparison to what they were refering to but yet they were not moved. Coupled with what we gave them scriptually, we also had historic record from the first century onward showing that the early Christians kept Sabbath up until and beyond when Constantine decreed it illegal to do so.


I guess my confusion/frustration/sadness is that how can someone that says they are all about following the truth when presented, can be so, almost stiff necked, when it is shown them?? I can only speak for myself and my wife but we had far less 'evidence' shown to us and immediately recognized it as the truth and moved forward in it...

How can people be so blinded by tradition and delusion and stubborness??

I don't believe the Sabbath is a salvation issue, but rather, it's a position in the kingdom issue. We will be least in the kingdom of God if we forget the least of the commandments.

 

[Kira Light]

ECR, when you tell people like this that keeping the Sabbath is a salvational issue, you are telling them that they, and probably almost everyone they know, are going to hell. You have to understand why that would be a tough sell.

 

[k4c]

ECR, when you tell people like this that keeping the Sabbath is a salvational issue, you are telling them that they, and probably almost everyone they know, are going to hell. You have to understand why that would be a tough sell.

It's not a salvation issue if they don't know about it or if they have not seen it yet. If they know and still refuse then that's a different story. Either way, it's in God's hand because He knows the heart.

 

[Kira Light]

It's not a salvation issue if they don't know about it or if they have not seen it yet. If they know and still refuse then that's a different story. Either way, it's in God's hand because He knows the heart.

Didn't ECR just send them to hell by telling them then?

 

[k4c]

Didn't ECR just send them to hell by telling them then?

He said they showed them that it was a salvation issue. What he showed them is not stated. Now let me ask you a question, if you saw someting in Scripture that convicted you but you rebelled and didn't submit to that conviction could that become a salvation issue?

 

[Kira Light]

He said they showed them that it was a salvation issue. What he showed them is not stated. Now let me ask you a question, if you saw someting in Scripture that convicted you but you rebelled and didn't submit to that conviction could that become a salvation issue?

Yes, I think so.

So you are saying not only does someone have to hear about Sabbath truth, they also need to believe it and be convicted by it, yet still reject it, for it to be salvational.

I don't necessarily have any arguments with that, I just think it is a pretty small percentage of people that fall in that category.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't believe the Sabbath is a salvation issue, but rather, it's a position in the kingdom issue. We will be least in the kingdom of God if we forget the least of the commandments.

I'm surprised to hear you say that... do you believe violating any of the other Commandments affect our salvation? Consider these verses...

1 John 2:4
He that sayeth, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey Him.

Matt 19:17
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

ECR, when you tell people like this that keeping the Sabbath is a salvational issue, you are telling them that they, and probably almost everyone they know, are going to hell. You have to understand why that would be a tough sell.

When you witness to someone that isn't saved and tell them that without Christ in their life, that they, and probably everyone they know, are doomed to destruction, is that a tough sell? Do we not call upon the Holy Spirit to convict from the truth given.

People need to feel their need of Christ, otherwise their conversion isn't genuine.

 

[Kira Light]

When you witness to someone that isn't saved and tell them that without Christ in their life, that they, and probably everyone they know, are doomed to destruction, is that a tough sell? Do we not call upon the Holy Spirit to convict from the truth given.

People need to feel their need of Christ, otherwise their conversion isn't genuine.

I'm just trying to answer your question in the original post. Can't you see how someone might be a bit resistant to the idea that they and all their loved ones are going to burn in hell?

Also, these people you are talking to are already Christians, and you are telling them that the same God they are trying to follow and love is going to cast them into the fires. It is a little different than telling it to an unbeliever.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm just trying to answer your question in the original post. Can't you see how someone might be a bit resistant to the idea that they and all their loved ones are going to burn in hell?

Also, these people you are talking to are already Christians, and you are telling them that the same God they are trying to follow and love is going to cast them into the fires. It is a little different than telling it to an unbeliever.

I can see your point, however, these people seemed genuinely interested in learning about the Sabbath and presented themselves as seeker of truth.

 

[k4c]

I'm surprised to hear you say that... do you believe violating any of the other Commandments affect our salvation? Consider these verses...

1 John 2:4
He that sayeth, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that obey Him.

Matt 19:17
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I call these verses, stepping stone verses because they are leading us into a higher truth. If you just stop at what you posted you can make them say what you're making them say but you need to read past the sentences you posted to go higher and deeper.

Remember, the rich young ruler kept them from birth but he was missing the higher purpose of the Law.

Can someone keep the Sabbath, as well as, the whole Law and still be lost? Why?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Didn't ECR just send them to hell by telling them then?

I was thinking about that as well in different contexts of my own... are we sending people to hell by sharing infos with them they cannot accept...???

 

[JohnMarsten]

My wife and I had a Bible study at our place last night with the couple from next door and their friends. They are Sunday keepers and appeared interested in this Sabbath thing that was made known to them by us in our talks with them.

My wife and I took this opportunity very seriously and had prepared quite alot of Biblical 'crib' notes to have on hand to use in our discussion. Beyond their initial questions of 'is the keeping of the Sabbath salvational', which we showed them Biblically that it was, as are all the Commandments, they didn't seem real interested in doing an actual study but were using a lot of 'I think', or 'I want' or 'I believe' statements instead of giving scripture. They did refer to a couple of the writings of Paul where he say we are not judge another in holy days etc and we explained that,yes, we are not to judge, that is God's job but that the verse doesn't sanctify or declare Sunday to be the new day of worship. We read to them dozens of scriptures that were either, God said, Jesus said,regarding the keeping of the commandments but they were not swayed in their understanding. The amount of evidence that we presented from the Bible to them was staggering in comparison to what they were refering to but yet they were not moved. Coupled with what we gave them scriptually, we also had historic record from the first century onward showing that the early Christians kept Sabbath up until and beyond when Constantine decreed it illegal to do so.


I guess my confusion/frustration/sadness is that how can someone that says they are all about following the truth when presented, can be so, almost stiff necked, when it is shown them?? I can only speak for myself and my wife but we had far less 'evidence' shown to us and immediately recognized it as the truth and moved forward in it...

How can people be so blinded by tradition and delusion and stubborness??

So you felt confusion/frustration/sadness??

Well, from what I understand is that these people you are referring to, they are sunday keepers...

let me take a shot... do they believe in Christ?? if so then: Did you feel the con/frus/sad thing after you shared the joy of having met a fellow believer in Christ?? So you entered a healthy situation which may have resulted in much joy and love and whatever longsuffering what have u and have created confusion/frustration/sadness... hmmm, I dont know...

As a conclusion: Are sabbatarians bound to experience that kind of thing if others dont believe the way they do...

 

[E.T.Elijah]

Sometimes, as Adventists, we don't realize when we are being overly aggressive with the Sabbath truth. Instead of answering questions about why we keep the Sabbath we tend to try to "convert" others to it rather than let the Holy Spirit convict them on it. But, we also need to understand that how we present it can make that job harder. I understand what ECR was trying to say, but I can also see how his neighbors took the messege. For us (SDA's) does not keeping the Sabbath effect our salvation? I think it is more than saying yes. If we are convicted on Sabbathkeeping (really commandment keeping) and we chose not to obey, then there is probably an underlying problem that needs to be address by the Holy Spirit. It isn't so much of an obedience issue as it is a trust issue. Do we trust Jesus enough to follow Him? If we do not trust Him, then we may not be in a saving relationship with Him in the first place. Before we can obey we need to trust that He is going to do what He said He would do. If we trust He has saved us, then we will obey His commands out of the love that trust inspires. Now, back to these neighbors. Does the Sabbath effect their salvation? How can it? They have not been convicted of its truth by the Holy Spirit. Having knowledge of something and seeing the relevence of it are two different things. If they are living up to the light they have received (being convicted of), then they are trusting Jesus as their Savior. Thus, salvation is theirs. But by telling them that salvation can depend on it can be misleading or even offensive. Sometimes less is more when it comes to answering questions about our convictions. It reminds me of KISS (keep it simple stupid). We need to remember that it is all about relationships. If we ruin a relationship by arguing about who is right or wrong, who really wins? No one because each side stops listening to the other and just tries to prove they are right. And in the end both walk away with bad feeling towards the other. I have learned, in my personal walk, that it is best to just present what I believe to be truth in God's Word and let the other person take it or leave it. Why argue over it? Just let them know your beliefs and let them make their own decisions or assumptions as the Spirit leads. I can change noones mind or make them see truth. I can't force anyone to follow it. But at least they will know where I stand and I am willing to answer any honest questions that they have. But if they come with the idea of bankrupting my faith, then I just shake the dust off my feet and move on.

 

[k4c]

I was thinking about that as well in different contexts of my own... are we sending people to hell by sharing infos with them they cannot accept...???

First of all we can't send anyone to hell. Secondly, if we could send someone to hell because they can't accept what we believe are we sending them to hell too if we tell a homosexual the truth and he can't accept it? Are we sending people to hell if they can't accept Jesus? The statement you make sounds reasonable to the human mind but it's a tool of Satan to condemn God's people for doing God's will in sharing the truth.

 

[JohnMarsten]

First of all we can't send anyone to hell. Secondly, if we could send someone to hell because they can't accept what we believe are we sending them to hell too if we tell a homosexual the truth and he can't accept it? Are we sending people to hell if they can't accept Jesus? The statement you make sounds reasonable to the human mind but it's a tool of Satan to condemn God's people for doing God's will in sharing the truth.

first of all, that sending down to hell thing was metaphorical, let me explain again in other words

somebody told that we are going to be judged according to the light we received, that is a very tough position cause what does it mean, the light we received??

it can only mean two things (IMO)

1. the light you received from other people

- in this scenario we are actually shaking ones foundation cause lets say somebody is a fervent sunday keeper, church goer, donator and whatsoever a great christian and we tell him or her about the 7th day, and he or she doesnt want to change their lifestyle, well, then they are rejecting truth and breaking the commandment, well, in the end it they would have been better off without our sharing the truth, (a sub-scenario would be that God is actually sending us to those people and no matter if they accept the 'truth' or not we are at least doing His will... no matter what the consequences may be

2. the light you received from God

- this scenario is in a way similar to the sub scenario presented above, but involves God's doing or the Holy Spirits doing. namely that they convince the person in question about the 'truth', in this scenario a person's responisbility and choice would be limited, since it would mean that without the Lord's conviction no one could believe any 'truth' and our work as such might be considered well, I dont know


as far as the gay gentleman is concerned, I dont think that it really matters if we tell them or not or if he is aware of what he is doing, or at least about God's point of view, one way or the other, I usually tend not to touch the homo subject...

as far as my statement is concerned, well, which statement are you talking about, I thought that I just asked a question, might be wrong about that, though

 

[JohnMarsten]

How can it? They have not been convicted of its truth by the Holy Spirit. Having knowledge of something and seeing the relevence of it are two different things. If they are living up to the light they have received (being convicted of),

now thats truly an interesting position I was thinking about as well...

so you mean, that truth is only appicable if we are convicted by the Spirit....

now as far as I am concerned, I am not convinced about it, even though I kept the Sabath for quite some time I got doubts lateron, and as of now am not certain about any day of worship...

according to your response I might just wait and see what the holy spirit may do, right?? maybe you are right... it sounds great at least...