Sexual Sins

[JWNEWMAN]

I didn't want to use the word homosexual in the title but that is what this is about. The sin of homosexuality. Or, is homosexuality a sin? In another thread, it was suggested that the practice of homosexual unions is not sinful. The poster offered we might discuss the topic on another thread. Here it is.

This discussion should revolve around what the scripture says and any other relevant information in translating scripture regarding this topic.

I am pre-disposed to believe it is a sin. I don't see any other way of interpreting scripture on this issue. However, I will endeavor to keep an open mind on the topic. To me homosexuality is the same as any other type of fornication it's all the same. It is sin.

 

[OllieFranz]

This will be moved to the Debates on Homosexuality thread as soon as the moderators notice it.

There are basically six "Biblical" arguments against homosexuality.

The verses about "sodomites" are based on a bad translation of the Hebrew word for prostitutes. Those verse mention both male and female prostitutes equally using the male and female forms of the same word, much as in English we might have somethin to say about actors and actressses. No honest apologist uses this argument any more.

Genesis 19 is sometimes used to claim that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. It wasn't. Sodom's sins are spelled out in Ezekiel 16:49-50

After examining the "The Whole Bible supports the idea of one man and one woman" claim, and Jude, verse 7 and its parallel in Second Peter, we can say that if the other two arguments hold, then maybe these strengthen the case. But if the other two arguments fall, these are not enough on theirown to prove homosexuality a sin.

The other two arguments concern the "unnatural" acts of Romans 1:26-27 and the question about "man-lying" ("mishkav bzakur" in Hebrew, "arsenokoitai" in Greek) (Based on Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, First Corinthians 6:9, and First Timothy 1:9-10

I'll tackle them in a later post.

 

[Strong in Him]

Can I just say that my answer in the other thread was brief and incomplete; partly because I didn't want to get off topic and partly because I thought the thread was closing anyway (though it hasn't yet.)

This is what I was responding to:

I say a church that tells homosexuals its ok to remain in their sin are leading them straight to hell, and it is an apostate church

and this is what I said:

Not true. (Will discuss in a new thread iof you wish.)

I don't actually know if I believe that homosexuality is a sin or not. I am well aware that the Bible says that God hates it eg Romans 1:27. But I have heard discussion of the view that this can be genetic, and some people who are quite distressed at finding they have feelings for the opposite gender, nevertheless cannot help those feelings. It is also true to say that God hates all sin. Romans 1 goes on to list those who hate, are greedy, envious. gossipers, filled with malice. faithless, ruthless and so on as deserving God's wrath just as much as those who are guilty of sexual sins. So it seems to me that if someone is going to say that homosexuality is a sin, they should speak out equally strongly against these things. Yet when was the last time we debated whether a man was fit to be ordained because of his jealousy, temper or habit of exaggerating the truth? Or read of people being filled with righteous anger at those who swear and take God's name in vain?

I am not saying that there is no such thing as sin and anything goes, or that we have no right, or duty, to speak out against evil and those who break God's standards. But why single out just one sin? And when we do so, I think it does close the door against ministry, acceptance and showing God's love. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery; go and sin no more. But he didn't say, that sin is disgusting, you're going to hell, I want nothing to do with you. Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners; demon possessed, lepers and the unclean of society. Equally he called the Pharisees blind guides and whitewashed tombs, but still explained to one of them how to be born again.

The poster in question objected to the fact that the denomination I belong to does not condemn homosexuals for their behaviour, but allows gay people to come to church, receive the sacraments and become members of the body of Christ. Apparently they should be condemning, not tolerating, and failure to do so means they are headed for hell and taking people with them. I do not agree with that. I believe the Gospel is available to all, and we should not condemn others or set ourselves up as judge and jury because they do something that we disagree with.

If the Methodist church was saying "it's fine to carry on sinning, after all you can always confess on Sunday"; or "repentance is out of date, you must do what makes you feel good," or "sin doesn't matter to God"; then this would be more serious. Sin mattered so much to God that he gave the life of his Son for it. But I don't believe the church is saying this.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

OllieFranz,


The word fornication which Jesus used includes homosexual acts.

I suppose the moderator's moving this thread would be appropriate. I'd like to stay away from the emotionally charged debating and try to stick to factual scriptural information for honest evaluation.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[OllieFranz]

Yes, homosexuals can commit fornication and adultery, just like any other person. But not simply because his actions are homosexual, rather because he chooses to express his sexuality in an adulterous or sexually impure way.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I'm not singling out this sin. It's a hot topic because of the social climate. I have friends, people I love, who are Wiccan's, homosexuals, Womanizer's, Drunks, etc., who I believe are living in sin and in open rebellion towards God because they, wave their behavior around like a banner. I have my own issues with sin. Everyone struggles with sin. We live in a body that doesn't think, only wants what it wants cause, if feels good, or tastes good, or is somehow otherwise exhilarating. So, I understand and sympathize with sinner's. I'm a sinner. However, I try to learn obedience and subjection to God's will.

I can't very well be judgmental when I myself am a sinner. But, I can say, according to God's word these A, B, C, are sins without being judgmental adding, if we have any of these maladies we should seek counseling, prayer, and learn to place our trust in God's power to overcome whatever it is. We all have struggles with sin, and, we all need to love one another in-spite of our sins. God did... God does... Love covers a multitude of sins.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

OllieFranz,


That's not what I meant. Homosexuality is part of the definition of the greek word translated as, fornication.

 

[OllieFranz]

If we want to avoid emotionally charged debating, perhaps it would be better if you asked questions about the five verses and I gave brief answers instead of my usual "lectures."
[bible]Leviticus 18:22[/bible]
[bible]Leviticus 20:13[/bible]
[bible]1 Corinthians 6:9-10[/bible]
[bible]1 Timothy 1:8-10[/bible]

and
[bible]Romans 1:26-27[/bible]

 

[JWNEWMAN]

If we want to avoid emotionally charged debating, perhaps it would be better if you asked questions about the five verses and I gave brief answers instead of my usual "lectures."
[bible]Leviticus 18:22[/bible]
[bible]Leviticus 20:13[/bible]
[bible]1 Corinthians 6:9-10[/bible]
[bible]1 Timothy 1:8-10[/bible]

and
[bible]Romans 1:26-27[/bible]

OK, I'm listening....

Let's start with the first one you stated: Leviticus 18:22

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I don't have much more time, so if I disappear it's not for lack of interest... I just have to go soon...

 

[OllieFranz]

Should I start with "lying" or with "abomination"?

Since you left the question open, I'll start with "abomination." The Hebrew word used here is "toevah." Every other time it is used in the Hebrew scriptures (other than Leviticus 20:13), it refers to either a ritual impurity stronger than just "unclean," or a defilement by association with idolatry.

With the possible exception of this verse and its repeat in Leviticus 20:13, whenever the Bible talks about the abomination of sexual immorality, it uses a different word, "zimmah."

Also, Leviticus 18 is not simply a list of prohibited actions. It is a coherent whole, and the verses at the beginning and end tell us that the purpose of listing these actions is because they are things that the Canaanites practiced, and the Jews were to be a separate people. Some of the actions -- the incest listed in verses 6-17 -- are also "zimmah," sexually immoral. But the others are primarily part of the "Holiness Code."

Some of the actions in the later verses are labelled "zimmah" elsewhere in the Bible. Adultery (verse 20), for example is labelled "zimmah" almost evry time the subject come up. But homosexual "man-lying" never is. The only two Hebrew verses to mention it are these two from the Holiness Code.

 

[chaz345]

on to list those who hate, are greedy, envious. gossipers, filled with malice. faithless, ruthless and so on as deserving God's wrath just as much as those who are guilty of sexual sins. So it seems to me that if someone is going to say that homosexuality is a sin, they should speak out equally strongly against these things.

The difference between those things and homosexuality though is that you don't have relatively orgainzed groups trying to assert that those things aren't sins. When was the las time you spoke to someone about one of those sins, perhaps in the context of mentioning to them that it was a sin, and they said "It's not a sin, it's just the way I am."?

IOW the reason that there is so much focused attention on homosexuality as a sin is because there is a focused effort to try to say that it isn't one. I guarantee that if there were a large group coordinating efforts to say that any one of those other things wasn't a sin, the response by Christians would be the same as it is with homosexuality.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Should I start with "lying" or with "abomination"?

Since you left the question open, I'll start with "abomination." The Hebrew word used here is "toevah." Every other time it is used in the Hebrew scriptures (other than Leviticus 20:13), it refers to either a ritual impurity stronger than just "unclean," or a defilement by association with idolatry.

With the possible exception of this verse and its repeat in Leviticus 20:13, whenever the Bible talks about the abomination of sexual immorality, it uses a different word, "zimmah."

Also, Leviticus 18 is not simply a list of prohibited actions. It is a coherent whole, and the verses at the beginning and end tell us that the purpose of listing these actions is because they are things that the Canaanites practiced, and the Jews were to be a separate people. Some of the actions -- the incest listed in verses 6-17 -- are also "zimmah," sexually immoral. But the others are primarily part of the "Holiness Code."

Some of the actions in the later verses are labelled "zimmah" elsewhere in the Bible. Adultery (verse 20), for examole is labelled "zimmah" almost evry time the subject come up. But homosexual "man-lying" never is. The only two Hebrew verses to mention it are these two from the Holiness Code.

Are you suggesting the prohibition against homosexual sex, isn't because it's wrong but, for some other reason? What other reason?

 

[OllieFranz]

I'm suggesting that we have to look more closely at the prohibition. What exactly was prohibited and why.

I'll look at the "lying" part of the verse in my next post. (I'll be offline until Monday, so I won't be posting until then. I haven't lost interest or given up.)

 

[JWNEWMAN]

OK I looked up the Hebrew for that text



Abomination


1) a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

I'm seeing your point as it relates to other observances in Leviticus given the denotation abomination. Now I have more to study...

 

[JWNEWMAN]

I've only done a cursory read but, I don't see the relevance of your pointing out this word. The word denotes something which is,

disgusting,
unclean (in a ritual sense)
wicked (in a ethical sense)

So it's not making sense that it could imply anything else but that it's wrong behavior.

 

[HuntingMan]

Genesis 19 is sometimes used to claim that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. It wasn't. Sodom's sins are spelled out in Ezekiel 16:49-50
.

Im sorry, where exactly to do you claim that their sexual sin was not part of the reason that Sodom was destroyed here?

Eze 16:49-50 KJV Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (50) And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

So it adds a few things there, and doesnt spell out 'men lying with men as one does a woman' ....so ?
It still shows they 'committed abomination'
apparently, based on Levitical law, God does tend to see men laying with men like one does a woman as 'abomination'.

Im failing entirely to see how you have removed their sexual sins from that passage.

 

[chris777]

I didn't want to use the word homosexual in the title but that is what this is about. The sin of homosexuality. Or, is homosexuality a sin? In another thread, it was suggested that the practice of homosexual unions is not sinful. The poster offered we might discuss the topic on another thread. Here it is.

This discussion should revolve around what the scripture says and any other relevant information in translating scripture regarding this topic.

I am pre-disposed to believe it is a sin. I don't see any other way of interpreting scripture on this issue. However, I will endeavor to keep an open mind on the topic. To me homosexuality is the same as any other type of fornication it's all the same. It is sin.

If you get back to this thread before the mods find it, edit your original post to include all sexual sins so that this does not end up in the pro homosexual thread, it really needs to be broader anyway considering the whole list of sins that will not enter the kingdom of heaven, I have no bigger beef with this sin than with any others, my beef is a denomination is encouraging sinfulness period, the sin is no better or worse than any other.

 

[Jerrell]

Do I need to show yall some real greek definitions?

Fornications from Mark 7:21:

[SIZE=+1]porneiva [/SIZE]Porneia (por-ni'-ah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4202

1. illicit sexual intercourse
   1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
   2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
   3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
2. metaph. the worship of idols
   1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

Abusers of themselves with mankind in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10:

[SIZE=+1]ajrsenokoivthß [/SIZE]Arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 733

1. one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

If anyone who is actually called by God reads the Bible it is easy to see that Homosexuality is a sin.

 

[Jerrell]

Fornication in a real sense is everything listed in Leveticus 18. Christians are not realsed from that moral sense of keeping themselves from sexual immorality (fornications), the Apostles in Acts 15 told the Church to keep Leveticus 18 (the law against fornication).