sex

[dies-l]

Two comments to make regarding your advice of counseling. I went to counseling and it didn't really help. As far as going to see a counselor on a regular basis, this isn't feasible for me; finances are really lousy for me and as a result it'd be problematic for me to due so (even ones who offer a sliding scale fee isn't an option for me).

Thanks for your comment. If your post above really reflects how you feel, I would encourage you to make it a priority to get help. It sounds like you have a pretty low opinion of life and of yourself and a pretty pessimistic outlook on the future. As I said before, I know from my own experience that this is a dangerous position to be in. But also, it is just downright unpleasant to feel that way. I'm not a medical professional, and obviously I don't personally know your precise situation; I'm just a guy who has struggled with depression. That said, I have seen how intervention from counselors and physicians can be very helpful.

When I started going to counseling, I couldn't afford it either. I basically decided that I was going to have to spend money that I didn't have, because the alternative to continuing to go on without help was unbearable to me. I am glad I did, because when my outlook changed, my opportunities changed. I found that when I was able to get a grasp on my mental and emotional health, I had the courage to go after those things that I really needed and wanted in life.

Another question that's sorta off-topic. What have you felt like before? What I posted, I'm feeling a bunch of different things.

The general tone of your last post reminds me a lot of myself, especially this part:

I'm jealous and furious and embittered because everybody seems to catch a break but me and I'm fed up with always getting shafted and screwed with life; for as long as I can remember ever since I've been a kid, nothing has been easy for me and if by some remote possibility things start to become better for me, as soon as they do, they immediately become bad just as they've started to become good. This has been the story-of-my-life. I don't really have an idea of what it means to be prosperous and have a future to look forward to, because for the most part my life has just been about playing catch-up and getting screwed. For me when I get problems, it's not just one; I get two, three, four of 'em at a time-essentially when it rains it pours.

I realize that life isn't fair; it's full of pain, sorrow, adversity, problems, tribulation; I KNOW this because that's what most of MY LIFE has consisted of. I'm familiar with the concepts of refinement, persecution, and sanctification, and know full well what purposes they serve in correlation with God. However where does it say in the Bible that all your life is supposed to consist of is pain, sorrow, problems, and adversity; that sounds like a bleak and mediocre existence to me.


Fyi, if God is supposed to be such a polite gentleman as it were, then how come I didn't even get a say in being born? I despise my life so much that I stay alive for other's sakes, not for my own sake. To me it seems the only reason I exist is to get treated like crap emotionally, problems heaped on top of me incessantly, and the scapegoat if something goes wrong, even if it's not my fault.

You will be in my prayers. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or need to talk.

 

[lawtonfogle]

our culture dictates these rules. since the beginning of time culture has had a form of rite of passage into adulthood and in north America that right of passage is control by our educational system. You at least need to finish high school and get a job before you are consider responsible enough to marry. If you go against this system you become a social outcast. Think about what happens when two 15yr teens marry. people begin to say they are too young or too irresponsible or too foolish. We are not surprised when the marriage fails and the first thing we would say is "well they got married too young". This is just a part of our culture and if you fight it then it will fight against you. It is better to submit to cultural ways as long as they don't go against God's commandments. This will gain you respect so you can more effectively speak the gospel. Think about what paul says

1 Corinthians 9
"Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews ... to the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

what paul is saying we must submit to our culture so that the culture will accept us and we can effectively present the gospel in that culture. Cultural systems are a right of passage into respect and if you go against them you don't get the respect and it will reflect against God no matter how foolish these systems are. We are creatures of habit and we will fight to keep it this way.

But that sounds like cultural relativism to me, and I honestly don't agree with you in at least the cases that go directly against what God commands. The question then being, is young marriage such a case?

And yes, if the marriage fails, you lose witness. But if you have premarital sex, you may suffer the same fate, and if you get married young, perhaps not initially, but later on as your marriage stands strong you will be trusted more so on issues related to marriage. And should we really be planing as if we are going to sin specific sins, as that seems overly defeatist?

 

[DamianWarS]

But that sounds like cultural relativism to me, and I honestly don't agree with you in at least the cases that go directly against what God commands. The question then being, is young marriage such a case?

this is why i said....

It is better to submit to cultural ways as long as they don't go against God's commandments.

Above all we need to submit to Christ but after that we should submit to our culture we are ministering in.

People are so depended upon their own cultural structure that they will recognize cultural practices as the "right way" and every thing against as the "wrong way". Marriage is one of these things and the fact is most people in North America will discourage a marriage between two 15yr teens. The problem is 15yr teens for the most part are a dependent in their family. Their parents support them and make sure they are feed and clothed and whatever. Our culture does not prepare a 15yr to be independent. It doesn't mean they are not able but because of how we raise our children it means they are not ready. These are just practices of our culture.

What do you expect a 15yr to really do? What happens when they get married. They can't go to school and work at the same time... so they continue to live at their parents and go to school and be the same person they were always except they have a ring on their finger and they can have sex with each other whenever they want. All they really turn into is a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship without boundaries. Is this really wrong? Well marriage is about two people learning about each other, growing with each other, and establishing a life together separate from your parents and a marriage like the one I described above is not that. It may legally be a marriage but it really is just permission to have sex which is not what God wants. Our culture just is not designed to allow marriage like that. Those limits like school and work and living conditions are not things I made up those are things our culture puts in place and because of that it restricts what our definition of a child by our law (under 18) can do. In our culture 15yr teens are not ready to have a marriage because we do not teach them to be ready at 15. They are told they are children so they act as children and this is what culture does.

There are always exceptions but in most cases two teens who are 15 years old should not get married not because it is "wrong" but because our culture is not set up that way. Our primary focus in life is not to have sex but to serve Christ. We always need to choose the option that will best serve our primary focus. If at 15 you are burning with passion too much then you should separate yourself from situations that will be too tempting for you. By doing that we are serving Christ and our culture which is all a part of serving Christ. Jesus teaches us about servanthood leadership. This means we serve the people (the culture) we are ministering to as we serve God. The bible teaches this through out it.

 

[OGM]

Very will put DamianWars! People forget that in Biblical times very few people had to be educated to the degree people have to today. Literacy rates were much, much lower than they are today. Modern day technology, globalization and competition have made it virtually impossible for a 15 year old to be fiscally able to raise a family. To compound the problem puberty is happening at lower ages than in Biblical times. It is not uncommon for 11 and 12 years olds to go through puberty in 2010.

This has created problems due to biological and cultural conflicts. All of the solutions I can think of are unacceptable for various reasons.

Allowing marriage during teenage years:
This would be a disaster!

Stop education upon puberty so marriage can happen:
Also a disaster!

Chemically or genetically delay puberty until a person is more mentally and spiritually mature:
That level of biological tampering is fraught with risks and danger.

Give it all to prayer:
Great to do but it usually does not completely cease desire, urges, and vivid sexually based dreaming in believers who are forbidden to have any sexual outlets and maybe frustrated for literally decades. The sexual frustration single Believers face parallels Type 2 diabetes in several ways. Both can have bad effects, are usually manageable, but can’t typically be “cured”.


Use drugs that don’t interfere with physical maturation but inhibit libido:
The interesting thing is that several classes of them including but not limited to Prozac, Paxil, and Luvox do just that. As Jim Parker writes in “Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft and Other Antidepressants: Pros & Cons”:
“An effect common to many SSRI's (common class of antidepressants) is some degree of sexual dysfunction -- ranging from an inability to achieve [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] all the way to a COMPLETE LOSS OF INTEREST IN SEX. Some researchers guess the rate of SSRI-related sexual impairment at up to 50 percent.”

I know many Brothers now on antidepressants who have confirmed these side effects. Some of the single ones have told me they like the fact that they, “feel free of their ‘flesh’ because they don’t have to think with their hormones.” They like the fact they don’t have to worry about premarital sex, lust, masturbation or inappropriate content anymore.



I have never been on these drugs so I can’t judge them. I never was a drinker or smoker but I am glad I don’t have the “urge” to get involved with any of these habits. However I would not fault a person who wanted to take medication to stop them from being users.

So the development of a class of drug to directly target unwanted libido as if it were OCD, alcoholism, nicotine or cocaine addiction might be the ticket for frustrated single whose bodies wants to do things that their soul and/or mind are in conflict with. I’m sure the Sex Industry and even some religious people might not like it for various reasons. But at least it could be a choice for those who thought their sexual urges were unwanted due to high testosterone levels, no hope-in-sight for a spouse or other reasons.

So… You want to know what works for this Brother? Minimal sleep is the trick. I have “trained” my body to sleep only 4-5 hours a night due to my workload. Combined with rigorous weight training and cardiovascular exercise; on a scale of 1-to-10 this single believer’s libido level is probably around minus 1000.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Very will put DamianWars! People forget that in Biblical times very few people had to be educated to the degree people have to today. Literacy rates were much, much lower than they are today. Modern day technology, globalization and competition have made it virtually impossible for a 15 year old to be fiscally able to raise a family. To compound the problem puberty is happening at lower ages than in Biblical times. It is not uncommon for 11 and 12 years olds to go through puberty in 2010.

11 or 12? Last I checked, you had to hit puberty before 8/9 to have a medical problem, so 8/9 is not unheard of.

This has created problems due to biological and cultural conflicts. All of the solutions I can think of are unacceptable for various reasons.

Allowing marriage during teenage years:
This would be a disaster!

Well, if our culture would prepare them for marriage instead. And anyways, it can't be much more of a disaster than the extremely high rates of teen sex we already have. I guess some people are ok with the sex though, as sex before marriage can be easier hidden than divorces can, and thus it allows for them to just pretend there isn't a problem.

Stop education upon puberty so marriage can happen:
Also a disaster!

One can continue their education after marriage, two of my friends are doing just that.

Chemically or genetically delay puberty until a person is more mentally and spiritually mature:
That level of biological tampering is fraught with risks and danger.

Well, until we study it more. But with enough study, it would be safe.

Give it all to prayer:
Great to do but it usually does not completely cease desire, urges, and vivid sexually based dreaming in believers who are forbidden to have any sexual outlets and maybe frustrated for literally decades. The sexual frustration single Believers face parallels Type 2 diabetes in several ways. Both can have bad effects, are usually manageable, but can’t typically be “cured”.

The issue being if it all could be cured by prayer, then why didn't Paul say so. Why did

Use drugs that don’t interfere with physical maturation but inhibit libido:
The interesting thing is that several classes of them including but not limited to Prozac, Paxil, and Luvox do just that. As Jim Parker writes in “Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft and Other Antidepressants: Pros & Cons”:
“An effect common to many SSRI's (common class of antidepressants) is some degree of sexual dysfunction -- ranging from an inability to achieve [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] all the way to a COMPLETE LOSS OF INTEREST IN SEX. Some researchers guess the rate of SSRI-related sexual impairment at up to 50 percent.”

I know many Brothers now on antidepressants who have confirmed these side effects. Some of the single ones have told me they like the fact that they, “feel free of their ‘flesh’ because they don’t have to think with their hormones.” They like the fact they don’t have to worry about premarital sex, lust, masturbation or inappropriate content anymore.



I have never been on these drugs so I can’t judge them. I never was a drinker or smoker but I am glad I don’t have the “urge” to get involved with any of these habits. However I would not fault a person who wanted to take medication to stop them from being users.

So the development of a class of drug to directly target unwanted libido as if it were OCD, alcoholism, nicotine or cocaine addiction might be the ticket for frustrated single whose bodies wants to do things that their soul and/or mind are in conflict with. I’m sure the Sex Industry and even some religious people might not like it for various reasons. But at least it could be a choice for those who thought their sexual urges were unwanted due to high testosterone levels, no hope-in-sight for a spouse or other reasons.

It is hard to find a libido supressing drug which doesn't come with worse side effects (or at least a high risk of them).

So… You want to know what works for this Brother? Minimal sleep is the trick. I have “trained” my body to sleep only 4-5 hours a night due to my workload. Combined with rigorous weight training and cardiovascular exercise; on a scale of 1-to-10 this single believer’s libido level is probably around minus 1000.

Except that doesn't work for everyone as well, and can be dangerous for most people as most people's bodies are going to suffer long term harm if they follow that plan.



Personally, I have been basically gritting my teeth for 16 years (yes, I had sexual desires before puberty, but that is another story for another time), but I'm well aware one day that is not going to be enough anymore. Actually, life is making me pretty aware that time is going to be running out soon. Thankfully I'm old enough marriage is not going to get me completely looked down upon, but there are some other major complications with the whole issue. I've asked God for help, but His answers aren't coming, or at least they aren't making any sense.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

My question is, how will a single Christian's sexual needs be met?

Masturbation, fornication, celibacy, and distraction (hobbies, exercise etc.)

 

[DamianWarS]

Personally, I have been basically gritting my teeth for 16 years (yes, I had sexual desires before puberty, but that is another story for another time), but I'm well aware one day that is not going to be enough anymore. Actually, life is making me pretty aware that time is going to be running out soon. Thankfully I'm old enough marriage is not going to get me completely looked down upon, but there are some other major complications with the whole issue. I've asked God for help, but His answers aren't coming, or at least they aren't making any sense.

I'm not saying getting married young is wrong but culturally speaking it is not a good idea (as far as north america is concerned). it doesn't mean it can't happen and it doesn't mean that it can't happen successfully but just because there is an exception doesn't mean it is the best way to approach the issue.

Well, if our culture would prepare them for marriage instead. And anyways, it can't be much more of a disaster than the extremely high rates of teen sex we already have. I guess some people are ok with the sex though, as sex before marriage can be easier hidden than divorces can, and thus it allows for them to just pretend there isn't a problem.

the problem is our culture doesn't prepare our teens for marriage. you are trying to answer a problem like sex with teenagers with a practice that our culture doesn't endorse or prepare for. instead of trying to think of the way no one will accept try and think of a way our culture can embrace for example abstinence.

But don't take my word for it why not talk to a parent of a teen and ask them what they would prefer... their teen to get married so they can have sex or their teen to practice abstinence. Their answer, whatever it would be, will be a reflection of their cultural background.

If our culture sees an issue one way and it does not go against the teaching of the bible than we should submit to that way no matter what we think about the subject. This doesn't mean we should jump on a band wagon and dismiss any other ideas. You can still continue to love others and teach them about how some of these issue don't matter one way or another and serve the culture at the same time. For example you yourself can choose a cultural approved time to get married and not have sex before marriage but at the same time show love to others that choose a different path and even stand up for them. We should submit to our culture but instead of showing a spirit of arrogance and rejection to others we should promote a spirit of submission and love but that submission and love is always based on Christ first than the culture.

If you get married young like at 15 you cannot stop people thinking that you are rushing into it and are irresponsible. Even when you are 40 and are happily married, people will still wonder why you got married so early and even long afterwards their judgment of you can still be based on the fact that you got married at 15 thinking you are irrational and have poor judgment. Their thinking is wrong but you can't stop it from being there because their thoughts are a reflection of their culture. With issues that are so culturally instilled like marriage it really is not worth fighting against because that fight will not look like a message of Christ's love so it will work against the message of the gospel. Knowing these errors of our culture should not get us going to clash against it but instead reach out to others that have been effective negatively and show them love.

this is what paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 9:22-23 "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." We must submit to all these ideas and standards people around us have and submit to biblical teaching at the same time making a standard that is above all reproach. No one said being a christian is easy.

 

[lawtonfogle]

I'm not saying getting married young is wrong but culturally speaking it is not a good idea (as far as north america is concerned). it doesn't mean it can't happen and it doesn't mean that it can't happen successfully but just because there is an exception doesn't mean it is the best way to approach the issue.


the problem is our culture doesn't prepare our teens for marriage. you are trying to answer a problem like sex with teenagers with a practice that our culture doesn't endorse or prepare for. instead of trying to think of the way no one will accept try and think of a way our culture can embrace for example abstinence.

But don't take my word for it why not talk to a parent of a teen and ask them what they would prefer... their teen to get married so they can have sex or their teen to practice abstinence. Their answer, whatever it would be, will be a reflection of their cultural background.

Well of course most parents want their kids to be abstinent, many parents have a hard enough time considering their teenagers sexual beings.

But, when asked if they rather their kids got married and had sex, or just had sex, which do you think they would prefer? And abstinence is not a solution. It is a personal choice, and for most of us, as Paul points out, it can only work for so long. The fact our culture has pushed marriage out like it has has resulting in really high rates of teenage sexual activity (and increasing rates of preteen sexual activity as many are hitting puberty before 13).

If our culture sees an issue one way and it does not go against the teaching of the bible than we should submit to that way no matter what we think about the subject.

My point is the argument of 'just abstaining' does go against the Bible.

This doesn't mean we should jump on a band wagon and dismiss any other ideas. You can still continue to love others and teach them about how some of these issue don't matter one way or another and serve the culture at the same time. For example you yourself can choose a cultural approved time to get married and not have sex before marriage but at the same time show love to others that choose a different path and even stand up for them. We should submit to our culture but instead of showing a spirit of arrogance and rejection to others we should promote a spirit of submission and love but that submission and love is always based on Christ first than the culture.

If you get married young like at 15 you cannot stop people thinking that you are rushing into it and are irresponsible. Even when you are 40 and are happily married, people will still wonder why you got married so early and even long afterwards their judgment of you can still be based on the fact that you got married at 15 thinking you are irrational and have poor judgment. Their thinking is wrong but you can't stop it from being there because their thoughts are a reflection of their culture. With issues that are so culturally instilled like marriage it really is not worth fighting against because that fight will not look like a message of Christ's love so it will work against the message of the gospel. Knowing these errors of our culture should not get us going to clash against it but instead reach out to others that have been effective negatively and show them love.

Yet if you had sex outside of marriage with the person you later married and stayed with, many people wouldn't see a big issue. Some will say you should have just abstained, but the Bible clearly points out that there comes a time where you are going to have to choose between getting married or 'burning with the flames of passion' (doing something like premarital sex, or at least sexual activity such as mutual masturbation). Paul points out marriage is the better choice, society says just have sex and get married later, while the church often says continue abstaining, but that is not an option.

this is what paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 9:22-23 "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." We must submit to all these ideas and standards people around us have and submit to biblical teaching at the same time making a standard that is above all reproach. No one said being a christian is easy.

Culture says to have sex young and wait till you are older to get married. The Bible says that, except for a few with the gift of celibacy, they are going to 'burn with the flames of passion' if they don't get married. This is a case where the cultural value runs directly against the Biblical value, but in this case, the church has chosen to support some third non-option so they can ignore the issue.

 

[OGM]

I'm not saying getting married young is wrong but culturally speaking it is not a good idea (as far as north america is concerned). it doesn't mean it can't happen and it doesn't mean that it can't happen successfully but just because there is an exception doesn't mean it is the best way to approach the issue.

It is a bad idea biologically as well. Below 18 years of age the risks of pregnancy increase greatly for the expectant mother. So a 14 year old is at a higher risk for complications than a 16 year old. In Biblical times it did not matter so much and women/girls were always dying due to pregnancy related problems.

the problem is our culture doesn't prepare our teens for marriage. you are trying to answer a problem like sex with teenagers with a practice that our culture doesn't endorse or prepare for. instead of trying to think of the way no one will accept try and think of a way our culture can embrace for example abstinence.

The body is yes for reproduction but the religion and culture say no. Libido is at its peak while all outlets are forbidden. No wonder the abstinence failure rate is so high. The body will keep pushing for a sexual outlet. If none is given the body will even try through sleep. Having all of these frustrated-lonely people walking around is awful.

But don't take my word for it why not talk to a parent of a teen and ask them what they would prefer... their teen to get married so they can have sex or their teen to practice abstinence. Their answer, whatever it would be, will be a reflection of their cultural background.

Very true! There is no easy answer. Tell a teen to practice total abstinence for sex and self-pleasure. By the time they are 20 years old I would say less than 1% of them will be totally successful. Even among teen believers I wonder how many of them are 100% successful at avoiding all sexual expressions and thoughts including lusting and masturbation. For argument sake, puberty at 12 years old and marriage at 22 years old. That is a whole decade of frustration and perhaps guilt. No good. Puberty and 12 marriage at 13 or 14. That is even worse, much worse! A problem without a non-biological based solution.

For example you yourself can choose a cultural approved time to get married and not have sex before marriage but at the same time show love to others that choose a different path and even stand up for them. We should submit to our culture but instead of showing a spirit of arrogance and rejection to others we should promote a spirit of submission and love but that submission and love is always based on Christ first than the culture.

We should respect others. We must all remember cultures are dynamic and that it is okay to try to make changes as well. In many ways things have gotten better. I rather live now than hundreds or thousands of years ago.

If you get married young like at 15 you cannot stop people thinking that you are rushing into it and are irresponsible. Even when you are 40 and are happily married, people will still wonder why you got married so early and even long afterwards their judgment of you can still be based on the fact that you got married at 15 thinking you are irrational and have poor judgment. Their thinking is wrong but you can't stop it from being there because their thoughts are a reflection of their culture. With issues that are so culturally instilled like marriage it really is not worth fighting against because that fight will not look like a message of Christ's love so it will work against the message of the gospel. Knowing these errors of our culture should not get us going to clash against it but instead reach out to others that have been effective negatively and show them love.

People will think what they want to think. I have known people who have married people from another race and nation. Some people disapproved but the couples were believers and happily married and are still married to this day. Many of those who disapproved had marriages that were failures. Go figure!

this is what paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 9:22-23 "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." We must submit to all these ideas and standards people around us have and submit to biblical teaching at the same time making a standard that is above all reproach. No one said being a christian is easy.

Amen to that!!!

 

[OGM]

quote=DamianWarS;54855944] Well, if our culture would prepare them for marriage instead. And anyways, it can't be much more of a disaster than the extremely high rates of teen sex we already have. I guess some people are ok with the sex though, as sex before marriage can be easier hidden than divorces can, and thus it allows for them to just pretend there isn't a problem. [/quote]
Divorce rates would be extremely high if all of these teens got married. Even more broken families would result.

One can continue their education after marriage, two of my friends are doing just that.

The problem is education once children arrive. Children can be expensive yet we live in a global economy that requires more and more education to compete against other countries that have low labor costs combined with a highly educated population.

Well, until we study it more. But with enough study, it would be safe.

In the future delaying puberty maybe the only answer. Right now what we are doing does not work.

The issue being if it all could be cured by prayer, then why didn't Paul say so?

Prayer for a libido cure is like praying for your heart to stop pumping. They are both hard-wired biological functions that are function as they are supposed to. In other words nothing in “broken” that needs to be fixed.

It is hard to find a libido supressing drug which doesn't come with worse side effects (or at least a high risk of them).

There are very few drugs expressly designed to reduce libido. Also to my knowledge one is Pharma is actively developing a drug to squash libido in “normal” people. Am willing to bet a targeted drug could be developed and brought to market. Most of the current suppression drugs are for sex offenders and for those who are looking to reduce the growth rate of cancerous tumors. We seem to care more about teen acne than teen sex in our culture.

Except that doesn't work for everyone as well, and can be dangerous for most people as most people's bodies are going to suffer long term harm if they follow that plan.

You are correct, the effects of minimal sleeping depend on the individual. I have been doing it for years so it is now my “norm”. My body will automatically wakeup after 5 hours. For some of the Brothers I know they just study and/or work like a dog. So by they time they go to sleep they just crash. If the body is constantly going and the brain has to multitask to deal with problems and challenges… You will not even have time to think about sex. An idol mind is the Devil’s workshop. HaHaHa

Personally, I have been basically gritting my teeth for 16 years (yes, I had sexual desires before puberty, but that is another story for another time), but I'm well aware one day that is not going to be enough anymore. Actually, life is making me pretty aware that time is going to be running out soon. Thankfully I'm old enough marriage is not going to get me completely looked down upon, but there are some other major complications with the whole issue. I've asked God for help, but His answers aren't coming, or at least they aren't making any sense.

You say “grit your teeth” and “time is going to be running out soon”. Yes, marriage will introduce some major complications, it always does. Would you be marrying as to avoid burning with passion? You asked God for help. Remember that he made you the way you are. You are not a mistake or fluke. You are a normal man. Don’t let this issue start eating away at your self-worth or pressure you in to a rush marriage.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Divorce rates would be extremely high if all of these teens got married. Even more broken families would result.

What about broken families resulting from children out of wedlock?

And anyways, there is nothing Biblically saying a person will get divorced, but there is something Biblically saying you will commit a sexual sin ('burn with the flames of passion'). Why are we trading the way we are, opting for the sin which will happen instead of the other one, which can be avoided to a higher extent. And I don't expect every teenage couple to get married.

The problem is education once children arrive. Children can be expensive yet we live in a global economy that requires more and more education to compete against other countries that have low labor costs combined with a highly educated population.

Children can arrive just as easily with pre-marital sex. Remember, we are talking about those who cannot hold off till later. If you can, then there isn't a problem pushing back the wedding till later.

In the future delaying puberty maybe the only answer. Right now what we are doing does not work.

As for right now, last I checked, we are speeding up, not delaying, puberty.

Prayer for a libido cure is like praying for your heart to stop pumping. They are both hard-wired biological functions that are function as they are supposed to. In other words nothing in “broken” that needs to be fixed.

Having a sexual desire and having one about to overwhelm you are two different things.

There are very few drugs expressly designed to reduce libido. Also to my knowledge one is Pharma is actively developing a drug to squash libido in “normal” people. Am willing to bet a targeted drug could be developed and brought to market. Most of the current suppression drugs are for sex offenders and for those who are looking to reduce the growth rate of cancerous tumors. We seem to care more about teen acne than teen sex in our culture.

You are correct, the effects of minimal sleeping depend on the individual. I have been doing it for years so it is now my “norm”. My body will automatically wakeup after 5 hours. For some of the Brothers I know they just study and/or work like a dog. So by they time they go to sleep they just crash. If the body is constantly going and the brain has to multitask to deal with problems and challenges… You will not even have time to think about sex. An idol mind is the Devil’s workshop. HaHaHa

My mind is anything but idol. Today while sitting around, my mind decided to start pondering the ability of a Turing machine to count arbitrarily/unboundedly high with a single portion of the tape which does not expand, deciding that a normal Turing machine could not do such, switching to ponder if there was a computational power increase in a Turing machine which could do such, and finished pondering having an 'Oracle' like device that can convert between any two bases (including really funky ones like irrational ones), and deciding if there was a power increase with one that had a limited number of bases to work with and one which had an unlimited number (it could do all bases) (both a countable and uncountable infinite number of bases).

You say “grit your teeth” and “time is going to be running out soon”. Yes, marriage will introduce some major complications, it always does. Would you be marrying as to avoid burning with passion? You asked God for help. Remember that he made you the way you are. You are not a mistake or fluke. You are a normal man. Don’t let this issue start eating away at your self-worth or pressure you in to a rush marriage.

I'm not going to rush into marriage, but for so long I have been able to live my life without having to think about it. And by soon, I'm talking on the scale of 5ish years. God has actually given me a way to resist sexual temptation at least for a few more years, but exactly what happens when that time runs out is something I cannot yet even begin to predict.

And I'm definitely not normal, though there is rarely a day that goes by that I don't wish I was normal.

 

[OGM]

What about broken families resulting from children out of wedlock?

And anyways, there is nothing Biblically saying a person will get divorced, but there is something Biblically saying you will commit a sexual sin ('burn with the flames of passion'). Why are we trading the way we are, opting for the sin which will happen instead of the other one, which can be avoided to a higher extent. And I don't expect every teenage couple to get married.

I believe we have more options. What I am saying is that you don’t HAVE to get married OR burn with the flames of passion. I say why not throw water on the flames and extinguish them altogether. Once I saw footage of monk that lit himself on fire. He did not yell or cry even though he burned to death. At that point I realized the human mind can turn desires on and off at will. I have seen anorexics literally stave to death. Apparently they were revolted by food. So in essence they overrode their will to eat. Paul seems to have a defeatist attitude about the whole thing. It is not an either/or

Children can arrive just as easily with pre-marital sex. Remember, we are talking about those who cannot hold off till later. If you can, then there isn't a problem pushing back the wedding till later.

Or not getting married at all.

As for right now, last I checked, we are speeding up, not delaying, puberty.

Yes we are but it maybe possible to delay it easily in a few years time. Hold on to your hat.

Having a sexual desire and having one about to overwhelm you are two different things.

True, but many people, especially many single people, find it to be an unwanted annoyance at any level except OFF.

My mind is anything but idol.

I never said it was. I was talking in generalities; sorry for the confusion.

I'm not going to rush into marriage, but for so long I have been able to live my life without having to think about it. And by soon, I'm talking on the scale of 5ish years. God has actually given me a way to resist sexual temptation at least for a few more years, but exactly what happens when that time runs out is something I cannot yet even begin to predict.

[FONT=&quot]What makes you think time will run out? You maybe able to resist for the rest of your life.

[/FONT]

 

[lawtonfogle]

I believe we have more options. What I am saying is that you don’t HAVE to get married OR burn with the flames of passion. I say why not throw water on the flames and extinguish them altogether. Once I saw footage of monk that lit himself on fire. He did not yell or cry even though he burned to death. At that point I realized the human mind can turn desires on and off at will.

Because the Bible points out that only few can do that. If the Bible is wrong there, why not just go ahead and say it is wrong about not having premarital sex?

I have seen anorexics literally stave to death. Apparently they were revolted by food. So in essence they overrode their will to eat. Paul seems to have a defeatist attitude about the whole thing. It is not an either/or

By Paul, you mean the Bible has a defeatist attitude about it?

Or not getting married at all.

I was talking people who could push it off a couple more years, not indefinitely.

Yes we are but it maybe possible to delay it easily in a few years time. Hold on to your hat.
True, but many people, especially many single people, find it to be an unwanted annoyance at any level except OFF.

Yes, but like a noise in the background, as long as it is not too obnoxious, you can learn to ignore it (until ti becomes too obnoxious).

I never said it was. I was talking in generalities; sorry for the confusion.
[FONT=&quot]What makes you think time will run out? You maybe able to resist for the rest of your life.
[/FONT]

Well yeah, we can always hope on miracles, but that really doesn't count. While a miracle can keep anyone alive, most people normally say they will die if they stop eating/drinking anything. I say this with the same certainity (unless of course I die young, in which case I will be able to abstain my whole life, but I normally try not to be so fatalisitic with myself).

 

[OGM]

Because the Bible points out that only few can do that. If the Bible is wrong there, why not just go ahead and say it is wrong about not having premarital sex?

Did you know there are literally millions of Christians of all ages living sex free lives today? Some people just become to lose interest for one reason or another.

By Paul, you mean the Bible has a defeatist attitude about it?

No I mean Paul himself. At least he tells you when what he is saying is his opinion and not that of Jesus.

I was talking people who could push it off a couple more years, not indefinitely.

Yes, but like a noise in the background, as long as it is not too obnoxious, you can learn to ignore it (until ti becomes too obnoxious).

[FONT=&quot]Some people push it off so long they forget it is there. They don’t even look at or are even attracted to anyone. It happens a lot more than you may think.

[/FONT]

 

[lawtonfogle]

Did you know there are literally millions of Christians of all ages living sex free lives today? Some people just become to lose interest for one reason or another.

And if there are 100's of millions of Christians, you still only got 1% chance.

[FONT=&quot]Some people push it off so long they forget it is there. They don’t even look at or are even attracted to anyone. It happens a lot more than you may think.
[/FONT]

Yes, 1% is a lot when you are dealing with millions, possibly billions of people. But that still is only a 1% chance for you the individual, which is not alot.

 

[daviddub]

All of this back and forth is interesting. I haven't read all of the posts, but I'm pretty sure I read a majority. I don't think I've heard one person say what marriage is, what sex is, how they relate, why the restrictions, etc.
Marriage is a covenant, but that doesn't define marriage. There are plenty of covenants. Every contract is in theory a covenant, so you need more clarification. Scripturally, marriage is the male-female human expression/representation of human-divine covenant relationship, namely Christ & the Church. This is not the nominal "church," but the people who's name's are written in the Lamb's book of Life from the foundation of the World. This is why marriage of husband and wife are lain literally right on top of the covenant of Christ and the Church. This is why the Church is so continually referred to as she/her...This is why the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it...This is why the wife is to be subject to her husband as the Church to Christ. This is what Eph 5:23-33, Tts 2:5 is all about. This is what Song of Solomon is all about. This is what the vineyard is about Matt 5:33. How the real relationship is between the householder (God) and His vineyard (Bride), and that the husbandmen (husbands) are to take care of the vineyard with such integrity, tenderness, cherishing, care, and love so that she yields fruit...first and foremost unto God. And where she yields fruit unto God preeminently, because it is God that gives increase, it will overflow and the husband will not lack at all in his life nor bedroom, that is, his (presses shall burst out with new wine.) Pr 3:9-10 Of course the fruit is just representative of the essence of her humanity in general, and femininity in specific. The major issue with sex within marriage is that it is true that sex doesn't fulfill our sexual desire. For our desire for intimacy is much deeper than sex. It is something much deeper than any physical expression can fully convey. Our lack is not primarily physical. Our lack is spiritual. However God is Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth" Jhn 4:24
That's right, sex is the male-female expression of worship. That's why idolatry and adultery are overlain (seen particularly in the OT). Extremely explicitly stated in Eze 23:37-45 but there are plenty others. This is why all sex outside of marriage is forbidden. Sex is representative of the type of intimacy that a person can have with God, and only God. For a person to do otherwise is tantamount to portraying that idolatry is ok, for it is precisely what extra-marital sex is an representation of idolatry. I hear talking about desires as if someone else created our desires. God created them, He alone can satiate them. If we submit to God totally in all out, dedicated, humble, radical, faithful, selfless lives of worship, sex will be as it ought to be, not an expression of our lack of intimacy; it will be an expression of our abundance of intimacy. Sex was never meant to fulfill a desire, it is meant to be an expression to the spouse whom God has committed to us of the fullness of God. The foolishness is thinking that our desires(general) are apart from our relationship with God, rather than recognizing that they are a part of said relationship. You guys are right on both sides when some of you speak of how difficult it is to just ignore or overcome...and others speak of how the mind can nevertheless overcome the body. However, God wants neither. He wants us to bring our inadequacy to him, recognizing that even if we can overcome our bodies ourselves with extreme asceticism, it is the change that originates with the Spirit that lasts. For as he says the flesh profits nothing...so that even if you could do it yourself, it would be eternally worthless.

 

[dayhiker]

Hi David,
I like that you emphasized idolatry and adultery are so related in the Bible. I started to realize this a few years ago. I was reading my Bible and was noticing how often the Bible talks about idolatry and how few times I was noticing preachers preach against idolatry. As I thought about this, it was pretty clear why this was, I don’t know anyone who has an idol in their home they worship and while there are some religions that have idols they worship I just run across them in America. Ya, I know they are here as well. The best preachers seem to do is to say that people make money an idol. Yet Jesus talked a lot about money and I don’t know that He once said people were worshiping money. Just that money was their master.


With that as a back ground, I see the Bible as saying adultery is the woman forsaking the covenant she has with her husband to another man. This parallels Israel forsaking God to worship idols. I don’t see the Bible saying all extra marital sex is idolatry. I don’t even see the Bible using the word extra marital. With so much sex connected with idol worship in the ancient middle east I don’t see why people want to minimize this as the clear Bible comment. It seem very clear to me. To be sexually involved in going to the temple prostitutes was to worship an idol which was to commit adultery against God.


dayhiker

 

[bugkiller]

It is pretty much inevitable that you will have sexual desires pretty much once you reach sexual maturity. but having sex will not make those desires go away. Sex can be very overrated sometimes and in the same way can be very underrated. You yourself seem to desire not sex but marriage and this is a good thing to desire because it is the reason why God made man and woman. Our desires for sex are naturally complimented with our desire for relationship. No matter what society has warped sex into today everyone desires to love someone that loves them back, not just physically but also emotionally and this is what marriage is about.

The problem is sometimes the answer is just not so easy. For whatever reasons some people just can't get married. In many cases they are not the type of person that are accepted by mainstream culture. It can be for very shallow reasons too. The reality is most people are puppets of their culture. They react, think, feel, speak, respond unconsciously like mindless robots. Beauty for them is in the eye of their culture. They do not know they are doing this but they will still choose to be with people who they are attracted to and they are attracted to the image of what their culture defines as attractive. They will not question this because they are a product of their culture and if it has treated them fine then there is no reason to question it. If you are on the other side of the coin you will be more sensitive to this flaw because it does not serve you.

As christians we need to understand that God supersedes these shallow opinions we develop in our culture. We all have them without even knowing it but God is still above it all. We need to surrender to God everything that we think we need no matter what it is and allow him to give us what he desires no matter what that is. When we desire sex or marriage more than we desire God we are making an idol of that and we need to surrender it to God. Saying the words "surrender" is all fine but it doesn't really take that urge out of us or that desire for companionship does it? No but there really is no better answer. All you can do is submit to God and be willing to accept what he gives you.

Adam himself wondered why there wasn't someone for him. We like to think this was all in a matter of one week after creation but Adam lived a very long time. He could have gone 100 years before he encountered Eve. The point is Adam felt that same desire and need for marriage and what else was he supposed to think but that it was hopeless. It of course is not hopeless and do no discredit the power of God. Ask God for someone and continue to serve him and see what happens. I speak from experience too. I am married now but I got married later in life. I finally gave up on my ideas of what I thought I needed and surrendered this idea that God was being unfair. My surrender to God lead me overseas for 3 years which happened to be the place where I met my wife who is the same nationality as me and her surrender to God (for similar reasons) led her to the same place where I went. I'm not saying that will happen to you but I am saying God has it under control and only desires the best for you. But you can only get the fullness of his desires if you surrender everything to him.

The title of your thread is all that atracted me.

I am still single. The irritant for me is my ablitity to participate in church. I can not do this or that simply because I am single. One pastor said if I was married he could really use me in his church. But since I was not married I was only allowed to baby sit some brats, attend functions and most importantly dump money into the plate. If the church has no use for me as a single, they also have no use for me if I was married. This makes church something else besides a fellowship of saints.

My social needs can be met much cheeper than the social requirements of church. I still maintain my relationship with God and Jesus my Savior. But I have largely dumped the organized church as valid for me. It meets none ofmy needs and will not allow my full participation simly based on the fact of marriage. I also notice extrremely few to no single men in the church, while OTH there seems to be a very large imbalance of women. I think there is a reason.

bugkiller

 

[OGM]

The title of your thread is all that atracted me.

I am still single. The irritant for me is my ablitity to participate in church. I can not do this or that simply because I am single. One pastor said if I was married he could really use me in his church. But since I was not married I was only allowed to baby sit some brats, attend functions and most importantly dump money into the plate. If the church has no use for me as a single, they also have no use for me if I was married. This makes church something else besides a fellowship of saints.

My social needs can be met much cheeper than the social requirements of church. I still maintain my relationship with God and Jesus my Savior. But I have largely dumped the organized church as valid for me. It meets none ofmy needs and will not allow my full participation simly based on the fact of marriage. I also notice extrremely few to no single men in the church, while OTH there seems to be a very large imbalance of women. I think there is a reason.

Yes, we are unwanted in many churches.

 

[razeontherock]

I'm not sure our OP will be back, but some perspective I haven't seen in this thread: (w/ apologies if I missed it)

1) She's got valid perspective that deserves to be validated;

2) suffering is part of the Christian walk, specifically in the struggle against sin;

3) "deny yourself, take up your cross and follow [Jesus]" tells us to brace ourselves for having our own needs NOT be met, and that it will kill us.

Let's not pretend to make this easier than it really is.