sex...

[Tyler582]

Okay I have a pretty good idea of what you guys are gonna say to this one, I just want to make sure though...

Okay so where is the line in a physical relationship before marriage? Is it just before you have sex? Or does God not even want me to be kissing a girl? I imagine that you guys will say anything that leads to sex... but I think that I can do pretty much anything up to it with out actually doing it just fine, so please just give me your thoughts no matter what they be. I just want to get an idea of how far I should go.

 

[Evening Mist]

Sigh. I remember wondering these things. I wouldn't go back to my teen years for anything! Marriage is hard work, but it is such a relief not to worry about this stuff anymore.

Where is the line? I still dunno. God doesn't want us having indiscriminent sex because he doesn't want us to hurt ourselves and each other.

I do believe that every physical interaction you have will tie you to her in some sense. And that if you break up, the tearing apart will be that much more painful for you both if you were involved sexually at *any* level.

If you care about her and respect her, then you need to be careful not to hurt her in this way.

The level to which you are physically involved should be proportionate to the level of commitment that you share. So, how comitted to her are you?

Touching someone in an intimate way and then dumping her is not okay. Once you are involved in that way, you have an obligation to her.

I wish I had a more clear answer for you!

 

[Athlon4all]

Honestly, any kind of touching between a man and a woman which is in a context of a gf/bf relationship, will no doubt be sexual contact, which is wrong outside of marriage (in comparison, kissing your mother/father, hugging a friend, if meant as a friendly hug/kiss, not a romantic contact). How are you doing brother?

 

[Magisterium]

hmm,
How far is too far? Well, we must evaluate the situation. Of course sex outside of marraige is not allowed in faithful christian life. However, vain discharge is also a wrong. This was the sin of Onan (Genesis 38:9-10) and God slew him for it. Yeah, this rules out masturbation (as well as contraception). (I know, I know, that sux) But anyway, One must look at the nature of marital relations in order to understand the restrictions. The Marital act in proper context is a complete giving to the spouse. The pleasure is "discovered" in one's attempt to give themselves in this manner. However, as you probably already know, society objectifies the "accidental" pleasure of marital relations and reduces sex to that end. Ironically, the extreme pleasure derived from marital relations is in fact the result of "PRO-creation". Pro means "With" naturally the with is God. You are cooperating with your spouse and God himself to create another complete human being. God's presence in this Holy and sacred act brings the euphoric sensation. When I'm teaching my 10th graders about sex and relationships, I explain the following. True Love is always Giving and seeking nothing in return. A warm embrace, gentle affection, even a passionate kiss are acceptable expressions of one's love for another. However, outside of marraige, deliberate stimulation of sexual organs is not permissable. The reason for this is because at that point, self giving ends and the desire to satisfy one's own cravings begins. Additionally, the stimulation engages the senses toward the act which is objectively sinful outside of marriage. This places two in a position where their judgement and restraint are severely diminished. However, I must explain that the sexual desire in the young man and woman are not sinful in and of themselves. This is a natural inclination and necessary for the procreation of the human race. Further, a married man and woman do nothing wrong to engage in marital relations with the objective of mutual gratification. (provided that they leave themselves open to the lifegiving power for which God instituted the act). Engaging in the marital act but closing it to the life giving power of God was also the sin of Onan and God slew him because of it.

 

[Tyler582]

Thanks guys, keep the good stuff coming.

 

[caley]

I assume my opinion is the minority on this site, but I think that if there's no chance it could lead to pregnancy, it's fine, as I believe the purpose for the no sex law is because God did not want pregnancy out of wedlock. Contraception is not 100% effective, therefore it does not make unwed sex okay.

However, you should be careful who you do certain things with, as there are things that can't lead to pregnancy that can lead to disease.

 

[I can eat 50 eggs]

How about what Jesus said,
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart

so anything that would cause you to lust is a sin.

 

[Susan]

I believe that we are called to total celibacy outside of marriage and to not engaging in sin within marriage.

This means that until you are married, you are not even so much as to hold hands with the person. You are to remain as separate as possible and to develop the spiritual and intellectual sides of your relationship as a close friendship.

as a side note
I used to say that sex within marriage should be for procreation only, however I see that as being somewhat impractical and legalistic. . .nevertheless the possibility of procreation should always be considered and abortifacients should never be used.

Nevertheless, I still believe that even in marriage there are some acts that are indecent and disgusting, and a sin against God. I believe that what these forbidden acts actually are is up to each couple to decide with the conviction of God, as a rule I would say anything that either person is uncomfortable with or sees as unclean is bad.

 

[Tyler582]

Thanks guys... lol but is that all ya got for me? Im interested to hear from the guys that can justify sex or something close to it why they can do that...

 

[ChristianPilot]

How on earth am I supposed to find someone I'm supposed to marry when I can't even hold hands with them?  Especially in todays society.  It's not that I'm afraid of being ridiculed, I get plenty of that already.  But I don't think I've ever met, or ever will meet a woman who would want a man who wouldn't even touch them until the wedding day.

 

[seebs]

I don't really know where the line "ought" to be. The conventional wisdom on where to draw that line changes wildly from place to place, and from time to time. For two thousand years, people have been putting forth different opinions on what the line is, and where it's drawn, and asserting with confidence that the line they proposed was *exactly* what God meant. Me, I'm not so sure.

I guess, try to use some common sense. Sex is not a toy. Casual sex is dangerous emotionally and physically, no matter what anyone thinks about it spiritually. Beyond that, the rules are unclear; the Bible never actually formally defines the rules for sex and marriage, appealing rather to general terms like "sexual immorality" and "fornication". The modern English understanding of "fornication" includes "premarital sex", but this is not the only way it's ever been understood.

As a general rule, if you're at the point where you're seriously interested in having sex with someone, and it's not a really bad idea, you're probably pretty close to the point where it would make sense to start talking about marriage anyway.

I can't offer much useful advice from my personal experience, except to say that, wherever the line is, I probably crossed it, and I'm not particularly proud of that, but it's not something I can change now.

 

[ChristianPilot]

Can we have some type of discussion about this? How am I supposed to find a wife that I can't have any physical contact with until we're married?

 

[pax]

I don't see a huge problem in holding hands. Passionately making out on the other hand, probably isn't the best idea. I don't believe a relationship needs to have that type of physical dimension prior to marriage for a marriage to succeed. We are called to resist even the near occasion of sin. Though I'm not sure if passionately kissing is sinful in itself, it could definitely lead to more which is most definitely sinful. Our sexuality is sacred, and should be treated as such.

 

[ChristianPilot]

I agree that sexuality is sacred, and that sex is something to be reserved for marriage. But where in the Bible does it say we can't even hold hands? Holding hands doesn't necessarilly involve lusting, neither does kissing or even passionate kissing to a certain extent.

 

[seebs]

Well, keep in mind, different people draw these lines in different ways; to some extent, it's a question of your own personal standards and desires. (See Romans 14.)

 

[ChristianPilot]

That's a very encouraging scripture, but I'm having trouble understanding it fully (as usual)
For reference:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Romans+14&version=NIV
in KJV
The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Now this tells me not to judge anybody else.  Leave that up to God.  Don't do anything that would put a stumbling block in any other believer's path because we belong to a kingdom of love and peace.

But my question doesn't deal with judging or being judged by other Christians.  I'm worried about being judged by God.

 

[seebs]

Basically, if holding hands isn't going to lead you into sin, go ahead and hold hands. If you know people who would be bothered by your holding hands, don't do it in front of them, or make a big thing about it.

Where, exactly, is the line? I don't know. A strict reading of the passage would say that whatever you can do without being convicted against it isn't sin, but I think that'd be an unrealistic reading.

Your concern about being judged by God is a good one, but the "hold hands" thing was offered as a personal opinion, as I understand it... nothing in the Bible about holding hands. The Biblical texts on this are a little unspecific, probably because sexual mores are normally something that everyone in a culture knows without having to be told. I guess, this is where faith comes in; you do your best, but you realize that you aren't going to be sure, so do your best to stick to things you're sure are okay with God, and listen carefully for clarifications in case you're wrong.

God probably doesn't want you to be paralyzed by fear of sin. Hugs, holding hands, chaste kissing... I don't think any of those are inherently problematic. Of course, I'm 30; when I was 18, they might have been. Certainly, you're going to end up with some amount of contact with someone before you're ready to be married. Keep an ear out for God's guidance, and you should be fine.

 

[ChristianPilot]

Well I agree with you for the most part. The thing is that without guidance I tend to do whatever I feel like. When I don't have a flight plan I tend to go where the scenery's pretty.

Another question I have is about those sexual mores: they change. For example, things like masturbation and homosexuality were frowned upon a few hundred years ago, even recently too. Homosexuality was actually a crime I believe. Does that mean God's standards for our sin change too?

 

[seebs]

Yesterday at 07:31 PM ChristianPilot said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=675898#post675898)
Well I agree with you for the most part. The thing is that without guidance I tend to do whatever I feel like. When I don't have a flight plan I tend to go where the scenery's pretty.

Ahh. That could be an issue. I'm not sure how to advise on that; I would recommend against doing what I did, which was follow up on that.

Another question I have is about those sexual mores: they change. For example, things like masturbation and homosexuality were frowned upon a few hundred years ago, even recently too. Homosexuality was actually a crime I believe. Does that mean God's standards for our sin change too?

I have no idea. I don't think so, but I think it's pretty clear that our interpretations of these things may change wildly over time. I've almost never in my life seen a woman in clothing that wouldn't have been considered shockingly indecent in Victorian times. Rules about when you get married, or what "marriage" implies, or whether or not you can divorce... All of these have changed. I don't know what God's rules are, exactly; I've only ever seen human attempts at interpreting them.

I think the main point of a lot of the material in the New Testament is to try to get us away from legalism, and trying to come up with specific *behaviors*, and change us towards understanding morality in terms of our basic approach to life. Instead of coming up with rules like "no kissing on a first date", we are supposed to think "is what I'm about to do genuinely respectful", or "is this an appropriate context for my sexual nature".

Which isn't to say "just go ahead, it's all okay" - it's to say that I don't think there's any easy answers for you. If you want quick guidelines, probably avoid things that really turn you on, and definitely avoid sexual contact, until you're married. I can't promise that's exactly right; maybe you'll deny yourself something you could have morally done, maybe you'll do something immoral. But I can say that it's a pretty good starting point for how to think about this.

In particular, I think it's generally a pretty good bet that you don't want to get sexually involved with someone you won't marry. Not "I think I could marry this person", but "I will marry this person, come Hell or high water".

My Humble Opinion. Good luck, and may God guide you in these choppy waters.

 

[OLDoMiNiON]

Can we have some type of discussion about this? How am I supposed to find a wife that I can't have any physical contact with until we're married?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36174.html - please read this thread everyone. We've been discussing whether we should even kiss before marriage. It has lots of asnsers, and many of my views on the subject, and it looks like the majority (certainly the older lot i.e. 20+) actualy agreed that it is "unwise" to even kiss before marriage.

Please read that thread, and then ask any questions that you may have about it in here, as i don't want to type everything again