Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

LoveGodsWord said:

Leviticus 16:8-22 show that it is only "the Lord's goat" that makes blood sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin (death) and to cleanse the sanctuary from all the sins of God's people which is completed through our great High Priest (Both of these representing Jesus in the new covenant; see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). After all of the sins of Gods' people have been purchased and atoned for through blood sacrifice (the death of Jesus and Jesus as our Great high Priest interceding on our behalf before God making blood atonement so we can receive God's forgiveness of sins do we have forgiveness of sins. Only after the final atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary has been completed and all of God's peoples sins have been forgiven and atoned for through blood sacrifice, is the "scapegoat" brought in before the presence of God where Jesus as our great High Priest lays his hands on the head of the scapegoat and transfers all the sins from God's people to "the scapegoat". At this time the scapegoat is "kept alive" and removed from the presence of God by a strong man into the wilderness. Satan (the scapegoat) does not die for your sins here it is kept alive. Only Jesus dies for our sins as "the Lords goat" through blood sacrifice. The scapegoat only has all the sins of Gods' people transferred to it from the Great High Priest (Jesus) which is then led away from the presence of God. Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

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So when you wrote earlier:
"Satan is not paying the price for our sins accept when he is finally destroyed..."
Did you mistype?

I'm not talking about when you wrote "accept" when you probably meant "except". Everybody makes typos like that. Especially me since I use Google voice typing.

But if we consider this sentence:
Satan is not paying the price for our sins except when he is finally destroyed.

The implication is that Satan is paying the price for our sin when he is finally destroyed.

That kind of sounds like what White believed. Is that what you believe?

Already posted on this. See Revelation 20:1-3.

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I did read Revelation 20:1-3. I see a lot of differences between Satan and the scapegoat story.

The scapegoat is not kept alive forever. See Revelation 20:5-14.

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Right, the scapegoat probably dies in the wilderness when it gets old and weak and is eaten by a lion or something. That's how most animals die in the wild.

Very different from how Satan's end is described imo.

Take care.

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You too, my friend!

LoveGodsWord said:

In all of our past discussions on a range of topics it is always the same Leaf, if I am being honest with you. If you are not sure on something I have always spent a lot of time in explaining exactly what I have said to you in a number of different ways if you did not know what I was saying or telling you exactly what I mean as you asked questions. This is only ever met normally with either the total post being either completely ignored or not responded to or a change of topic. In the past I have always responded to something you were not sure about what I have said even if what I have said, I believe was clearly stated in the post you were quoting from. Sometimes I ask you for further clarification asking you what is it in the post you are quoting from that you think I am saying so I can understand what it is you do not understand. This is also normally met with silence from you. Even if you disagree with something I have written, I ask you what exactly is it that you disagree with and why you might disagree from scripture in order to find out where our disagreements are in order to progress the discussion but I normally do not get a response. That said I do not mind if you are after a genuine honest discussion. Most people I have met here I feel refuse to be open in discussing the scriptures although I have met a few.

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So is that a Yes, you do want me to say when I don't understand what you're saying?

What do you mean that the definition wasn't certain?

You were posted the Hebrew meaning of Azazel meaning "removed" and "fallen angel" you were also provided with other sources of Jewish literature outside of the scriptures as to their understanding of the Hebrew name Azazel and who they believed it belonged to and the Apocrypha writings from the the book of Enoch all calling and applying the Hebrew name to Satan as the leader of the rebellious fallen angels. These are three independent witnesses all in agreement that Azazel translated as scapegoat in Leviticus 16 is a reference to Satan.

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I believe I gave the link earlier. It says "meaning dubious"

Strong's #5799 - עֲזָאזֵל - Old Testament Hebrew Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

You can get a fuller explanation if you go down to the "Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Definition"

Looks like there have been a lot of opinions about it over the centuries.

But sure, fallen Angel is a possible definition. It's just not the only possible definition.

Revelation 22:11-15 links to the completion of the final atonement and the cleansing of the Sanctuary of all sin and the transference and removal of all sin to "the scapegoat" through blood sacrifice. This is the final work done just before Jesus returns. Sin being transferred to "the scapegoat" (satan) and him being led away by the Angel captive into the bottomless pit for 1000 years was a direct contrast of Leviticus 16:20-22 to Revelation 20:1-3. All these scriptures link perfectly in action and timing to the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary and the transferring of all the sins of Gods' people to "the scapegoat" and the removing of all sin away from the presence of God.

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I understand that the link is there in your mind.

I see some issues with trying to link them. For example, Revelation 22:11-15 doesn't mention the sanctuary or temple. I think it is probably talking about the New Jerusalem. I don't think there is a temple in the new Jerusalem.

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I think this is how our discussions often go. You see something in the scriptures, I see something different. It's not a matter of me ignoring what you have posted.

Can we agree that while this link is something a person could see, it is not stated in the scriptures?

Can you agree that when something is not stated in the scriptures, different people will often see different links and implications?

Of course the goat was tied up how else would he be led by a strong man into the wilderness?

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I don't know, maybe the strong man has treats he tosses to the goat every now and then.

Also, I said tied up as a matter of common speaking. But the scriptures of course say that Satan is bound.

Is any of this conclusive in itself? No, I don't think so.

I am sure the goat was not going to follow him there. Goats to not live 1000 years the whole scapegoat scenario in Leviticus 16 is symbolic and nothing is said as to what happens after the goat is led into the wilderness by the strong man.

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Yes, it's symbolic. Not every part of the symbolism transfers over. That's one of my main points!

Finally the scriptures of Revelation 20:1-3 says "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

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Yes, while the scapegoat probably doesn't return to the people whose sins he was removing.

Agreed.

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Cool!

I see. Most people believe that "the scapegoat" represents either satan or Jesus. If you do not think that Jesus represents "the scapegoat" who do you think it represents and why?

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I don't know that it has to represent a particular being.

That's why I gave the quote from Freud "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Sometimes a lamb is Jesus. Sometimes it's just a lamb. Sometimes a snake is satan. Sometimes it's just a snake.

If Jesus is both the high priest and the Lord's goat, then we already have a single being corresponding to two different characters in the story. So obviously there is not an exact one-to-one correspondence between beings in real life and characters in the story.

Agreed.

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Cool again!

Take Care.

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You too, my man!

BobRyan said:

A partial detail being quoted above - a detail you don't find in our 28 fundamental beliefs.

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Yo Bob, glad you're back!

Is there a conflict between what White wrote and the fundamental beliefs?

Is White considered always reliable or just usually reliable?

tall73 said: ↑

I still have not heard you answer why satan pays the final penalty for the sins of God's people if Jesus already paid the penalty for the sins of God's people.

Ellen White wrote:
When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

LoveGodsWord said:

It was because he was the instigator of all sin.

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So you have zero responsibility for your sin? The devil made you do it? Is it your sin at all then?

After Jesus purchased our sins through blood sacrifice they werre no longer our sins.

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This disagrees with what Ellen White said:

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

It says they are the sins of His people.

In the great day of atonement, all of the sins of God's people were then transferred to "the scapegoat" that was "kept alive" and led into the wilderness by a strong man.

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How can your sin be transferred to a sinful being?

And you already admitted he is not "kept alive" when he pays the final penalty.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑

Satan is not paying the price for our sins accept when he is finally destroyed in the lake of fire

So once again, you do have him paying the price for our sins by death in the lake of fire. But you say Jesus "purchased" our sins, but only to move them around.

After this time all the wicked as well as the devil and his angels are then thrown into the lake of fire where they will all atone for their sins

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Why do you keep changing what she said?

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

The sins of God's people are placed on satan per Ellen White.

How can satan bear other people's sins? And why would he need to if Jesus paid the price?

You seem to be indicating that Jesus "purchased" sins as a commodity and transferred them to satan. So Jesus died to move sins around, so that they can be placed on satan so that he can suffer longer?

If that sounds absurd, which it does, that is because I am following the logic you spelled out above.

BobRyan said:

We believe all the Bible writers held strictly to the standard of "Sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice" -- apparently you don't think that is true.. so then ... "we differ".

In any case the SDA doctrines are all tested sola scriptura and are listed in our 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

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This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and we believe it was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. Her writings speak with prophetic authority and provide comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction to the church.
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? - Adventist.org

What is the test that a person's "writings speak with prophetic authority"?

BobRyan said:

here is an "easy" answer to understand the issue regarding satan's guilt and his debt owed -- #558

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Yes, I read your post there. Now are you saying that Satan does pay the final penalty for our sin? Or is it something more like he pays the final penalty for tempting us to sin?

I like the fact that we can get to the easy part so quickly in our conversations together.

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tall73 said: ↑
I still have not heard you answer why satan pays the final penalty for the sins of God's people if Jesus already paid the penalty for the sins of God's people.

Ellen White said:
When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.

BobRyan said:

Satan pays for his own debt of sin in tempting the saints. Satan's "debt owed" can be evaluated since he is the deceiver, he devil, the origin of evil - but his debt is limited when it is tempting the servants of his own kingdom, those who already of their own free will choose rebellion and thus choose "Barabbas" Satan a their king -- instead of God. When he tempts them he is guilty to an extent - but since they have free will they take a large share of that guilt on themselves.

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So the saints don't have free will? But the wicked do?

The wicked chose evil....and they are guilty for their sins.

Satan tempted them to evil, and he is guilty for his sin of temptation. Whatever "large share" of guilt you place on the person doing the sin is their sin, not his.

However when the judgment reveals that Satan is tempting those who do not choose him as their king, the saints, those who struggle against sin- then his debt of sin , debt of guilt is even greater in that case and he has an added level of debt for his "guilt" in tempting those who were NOT in his kingdom.

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His sin of temptation is his own.

Whatever percentage the saints have is still their own. And it is that portion that Ellen White says is transferred to satan, which makes no sense. Satan can't bear anyone's sin.

And the saints don't have less free will because they resist sin. In fact they have everything needed for godliness. And just as teachers will be judged more strictly, the one who is in Christ has a greater guilt when sinning than the one who does not know Christ, or have His Spirit in them, which they then grieve.

Your sin is your sin. It is not satan's sin. His sin of temptation is his sin. And he cannot bear your sin. And Jesus already did!

But Ellen White says he does bear our sin:

When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, must bear the final penalty.


Now you quote the later statement, which I also quoted:



Bob, do you think Jesus only removed some of the sins from the sanctuary, the ones satan CAUSED you to commit? Did he only place some of the sins on satan? Because she stated earlier he placed them all.

Can you explain more which sins satan caused you to commit? Were you possessed?

Are you speaking of children, and seeing it as before an age of accountability?

Can you relate your answer to Jame's statement?

Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Do you bear no responsibility for your sin? And if you do, is that not your sin? And if it is your sin, how is it transferred to satan? satan cannot bear someone else's sin. Satan is guilty of his sin. Part of that sin of satan is temptation. You are guilty of your sin. But Jesus already paid the price.

The Bible does not teach that the scapegoat is "the sin offering" rather only the Lord's goat in Lev 16 is "the sin offering" -- only it dies a substitutionary atoning death on behalf of others.

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Both were brought for a sin offering, so both had to be unblemished, clean animals. Why do you think satan would be represented by a clean animal? Why would he be able to bear sins of God's people when he has his own sin to bear? Do you think Jesus and Satan are interchangeable? Could God have chosen either for each job?

Of course not, Jesus is the sinless, blameless, Son of God and satan is a defiled sinner.

Do you really think God was choosing between Jesus and satan to be the sin offering that cleanses by blood?

Both are aspects of Jesus' work. He both died for sin, and sent sin out of the camp.

Leaf473 said:

Yo Bob, glad you're back!

Is there a conflict between what White wrote and the fundamental beliefs?

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Yes, you could take that different ways.

You could even take it to mean that satan does take on God's people's sins that Jesus already paid for, but Adventists don't make too big of a deal of it--for rather obvious reasons.

tall73 said: ↑

Jesus is the High Priest already and kills the Lord's goat

BobRyan said:

Jesus did not kill himself.

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You are going to have to spell that out a bit more Bob.

Do you disagree the high priest represents Jesus?

Do you disagree the Lord's goat represents Jesus?

Do you disagree that Jesus laid down His own life?

Joh 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
Joh 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”