Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said:
Bob, the entry with blood was the fulfillment. Jesus presented Himself in God's presence for us. He doesn't keep trillions of containers of blood on hand for each confession.

And if you had been reading my posts on that type-vs-antiype point -- you would see that I never claim that he is sprinkling anything at all in the sanctuary in heaven - because that sprinkling is "the TYPE" not the antitype.

Monday at 11:36 PM #258
Tuesday at 11:11 AM #263
Tuesday at 8:33 PM #271

offering himself in Heb 9 -- is the "suffering on the cross" in Heb 9.

BobRyan said:
hmmm....

25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often"

The offering mentioned in Heb 9 is in relation to the cross - "Suffering on the cross" such that to "offer often" is to "suffer on the cross often".

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
hmmm....

25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often"

The offering mentioned in Heb 9 is in relation to the cross - "Suffering on the cross" such that to "offer often" is to "suffer on the cross often".

You cut off 24. But 24 makes clear that 25 is in the context of ENTRY:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ has entered into heaven itself to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it (the entry) to offer/present himself yearly as the high priest had to do every Day of Atonement. He did it once.

Because if he had to enter every year he would have to suffer every year to have new blood to bring. But that is ruled out. He did it once.

Here are a number of commentaries that look at the Greek and address this aspect. They note that the offer is in the context of entry, and refers to his presentation of himself.

Commentary on the New Testament by D. D. Whedon

This offer is parallel to the entereth of the high priest; it, therefore does not here mean to sacrifice himself, but to present himself in heaven, as the high priest presented himself in the holy place. Yet in both cases a previous sacrifice takes place.

Vincet's Word Studies

Offer himself refers rather to Christ's entrance into the heavenly sanctuary and presentation of himself before God, than to his offering on the cross. . . The sacrifice on the cross is described by παθειν suffer, Heb 9:26, and is introduced as a distinct thought. The point is that, being once in the heavenly sanctuary, Christ was not compelled to renew often his presentation of himself there, since, in that case, it would be necessary for him to suffer often. Each separate offering would necessitate a corresponding suffering.

Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews by Franz Delitsch

V. 25 Nor yet (is he entered in) that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy of holies year by year with alien blood.

The comparison is between the offering of the Jewish high priest within the veil, and that of Christ in the eternal sanctuary: the προσφερειν εαυτον here spoken of cannot therefore be ...the self-sacrifice of Christ upon earth, but a self-presentation subsequent to that. The Jewish high priest goes year by year into the typical sanctuary, εν...αιματι αλλοτριω, i.e. to offer there the blood of a sacrifice which is not himself. Not so with Christ. He is gone into the heavenly sanctuary once for all, not to offer Himself first now, and then again some time hence, and again afterwards, and so on in perpetual succession.

On verse 26:

An of-repeated self-oblation (πολλακις προσφερειν εαυτον) would have been impossible without an oft-repeated suffering of death (πολλακισ παθειν).

The Greek Testament, on vs. 26, in reference to 25 and 26 and the argument therein:

This παθειν is here not equivalent to that προσφερειν, but is emphatically placed as a new necessity, involved in that; the πολλακις being common to both: the πολλακιςπροσφερειν necessitated the πολλακιςπαθειν. If Christ’s view in entering heaven was to offer, present, himself often to God, then, as a condition of that frequent presentation, there would be an antecedent necessity for Him to suffer often: because that self-presentation is in fact the bringing in before God of the Blood of that his suffering: and if the one was to be renewed, so must the other be likewise.

Jamieson Faussett Brown

Construe, "Nor yet did He enter for this purpose that He may offer Himself often," that is, "present Himself in the presence of God, as the high priest does (Paul uses the present tense, as the legal service was then existing), year by year, on the Day of Atonement, entering the Holy of Holies.

Beacon Bible Commentary

Extends the thought of the previous verse by affirming that this crucial self-presentation before the Father does not need to be repeated, as the high priest entereth into the [earthly] holy place every year with blood of others.

Jesus' offered Himself in God's presence, on our behalf, the completed sacrifice.

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

tall73 said:
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Christ has entered into heaven itself to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it (the entry) to offer/present himself yearly as the high priest had to do every Day of Atonement. He did it once.

You should have kept going to vs 28.

Heb 9:

24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters the Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (blood already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own. OTHERWISE would He (CHRIST) have needed to SUFFER (on the cross as a sin offering) often since the foundation of the world; but now once (one sin offering) at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin BY THE SACRIFICE of Himself (on the cross as a sin offering). 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once (As a sin offering on he cross) to bear the sins of many,

As we see in the above -

Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

BobRyan said:
John Gill on Heb 9:24
... Christ appears in the court of heaven for his elect, by representing their persons; by presenting himself, his blood, sacrifice, and righteousness, before God on their account; by introducing them into the presence of God, and offering up their prayers with the incense of his mediation; by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance; not that he did not appear before God for the saints of the Old Testament, for he was the angel of God's presence then, though he did not appear then in the manner he does now, as the Lamb in the midst of the throne, as if it had been slain; but it denotes the continuance and perpetuity of his appearance for his people; he is ever interceding for them.

Hebrews 9 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
That is a reference to "the type" -- in the type you have many sacrifices including one on the day of Atonement.

I think your mission was to show that in the antitype the blood is offered inside the sanctuary once for both the daily and he day of atonement deleting both phases at once.

Yes Bob, 9:7 is the type. And the author uses "offer/present" προσφέρει to illustrate the blood ministration in the type.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

And then he shows how Christ entered by means of blood, securing eternal redemption.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The blood is compared to that of bulls and goats. Goat blood only went into the sanctuary in the inauguration and the Day of Atonement. And this is one entry for all, by means of blood, which means that it fulfilled both.

And we see the same term used of the type, to present or offer, used in the fulfillment. It describes how it was necessary for the cleansing of the heavenly things to be done by a better kind of sacrifice. Then says Christ has entered, past tense, into God's presence for us, and doesn't have to present himself yearly as the high priest did in the earthly.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

The author describes the entry of the high priest to present blood at the beginning, describing the type. And then he does the same again describing the fulfillment.

Jesus also is seen as the fulfillment to inauguration, ratification of the covenant, the red heifer, etc. in the chapter. He did all the blood work already.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
Heb 9:

Bob said:

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters he Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own.

In both 9:7, describing the type, and here, the presentation/offering is in the context of entry. It is not describing the death. Just as the other texts I posted from the LXX using the term were not describing the death.

It means present or offer. And He offered himself. That is why it is compared (favorably) to the ENTRY of the high priest every year with blood.

You try to make prosphero a technical term meaning only death. But it doesn't work with the usage of the word, which is not limited to death (and in fact the texts you cited were a different word). And it doesn't match the usage which is in context of entry.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

You continue to change the type. Doesn't it bother you that Leviticus 16 doesn't show investigation of cases

BobRyan said:
No more than I would be bothered by the fact that the sin offering representing God the Son - Jesus Christ the Messiah -- is in fact a goat and does not speak Hebrew and does not read or write. "Types" are funny that way.

Individual interaction is shown in the system of "types" - in the daily service.

The type is spelled out in Hebrews 9:7 which you already admitted Bob.

It is not investigation of cases but blood presentation:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Just as it is in the type in Leviticus 16:

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.

You try to compare this to the animal not speaking Hebrew, or reading and writing, but of course it is not the same.

Jesus is represented by the animal. We agree, they are not the same. But both point to the death of Jesus which was necessary for atonement.

But in regards to the ACTION of the high priest, that is also spelled out in the type. It is blood atonement, not investigation.

Hence 9:7 speaks of presenting blood for the sins of himself and the people.

That is not investigation Bob. That is blood atonement.

You have changed the type. And it should bother you that you cannot find this investigation action by the priest in the type, or in the summary of the type in Hebrews 9:7.

Also, the type in Lev. 16 includes interaction by the people:

Lev 16:29 “And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.
Lev 16:30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

John Gill on Heb 9:24

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands…
The most holy place in the tabernacle of Moses, or in the temple built by Solomon, and rebuilt by Zerubbabel, and repaired by Herod,

which are the figures of the true;
that is, the most holy place in the tabernacle and temple, was a figure of the truth of that type; see (Hebrews 9:9) as follows. Josephus F13 suggests the same, when speaking of the most holy place; he says, that it was inaccessible to the priests, that it might be as heaven to God.

But into heaven itself;
not the visible heavens, the airy and starry ones, through which he passed, but the third heaven, the habitation of God, angels, and glorified saints: this shows that heaven is a place; that Christ, as man, was out of it when on earth; and that at his ascension he entered into it, having done the work he came about, and that with acceptance: the end of his entrance was

now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Christ, as God, was always in his presence, from everlasting; as Mediator, he was with him in the council of peace; while he was here on earth his Father was with him, he was not alone; but now in his human nature he is at his right hand, where he appears before him, as a favourite before his Prince, on the behalf of another, or as an advocate on the behalf of his client: Christ appears in the court of heaven for his elect, by representing their persons; by presenting himself, his blood, sacrifice, and righteousness, before God on their account; by introducing them into the presence of God, and offering up their prayers with the incense of his mediation; by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance; not that he did not appear before God for the saints of the Old Testament, for he was the angel of God's presence then, though he did not appear then in the manner he does now, as the Lamb in the midst of the throne, as if it had been slain; but it denotes the continuance and perpetuity of his appearance for his people; he is ever interceding for them.

Hebrews 9 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
You should have kept going to vs 28.

Heb 9:

24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters the Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (blood already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own.

There is no conflict with 28, as it relates to the suffering of 26.

24-25 still picture entry, and the presentation of himself is compared to the high priest entry every year with blood.

Then it is stated if he had to enter every year he would have to suffer again often. Then it notes he was offered once in verse 28 (and yes, that does refer to the death, being parallel with 26).

He does not have to present Himself before God often, as the high priest did in the earthly often taking blood.

Because if he did have to present Himself with blood often he would also have to suffer often. But he does not have to suffer often because he offered (in death) once.

As noted repeatedly, it is not a technical term. It is translated a number of ways by the context. In verse 28 the context is death. In verse 25 the context is entry with blood, compared to that of the high priest in the earthly.

And of course, we already saw the once for all entry with blood which obatined eternal redemption in 11-12. You still haven't described how an entry with blood results in eternal redemption. But it is clear in the context because it shows Jesus' entry into God's presence for us, which fulfilled the type. He went by means of His own blood into God's presence once. Just as He died once.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said:
Bob said:

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters he Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own.
.

The crux of the point is addressed here

BobRyan said:
Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

Heb 9:

24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters the Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (blood already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own. OTHERWISE would He (CHRIST) have needed to SUFFER (on the cross as a sin offering) often since the foundation of the world; but now once (one sin offering) at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin BY THE SACRIFICE of Himself (on the cross as a sin offering). 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once (As a sin offering on he cross) to bear the sins of many,

As we see in the above -

Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

There is no good way around that

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
John Gill on Heb 9:24

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands…
The most holy place in the tabernacle of Moses, or in the temple built by Solomon, and rebuilt by Zerubbabel, and repaired by Herod,

which are the figures of the true;
that is, the most holy place in the tabernacle and temple, was a figure of the truth of that type; see (Hebrews 9:9) as follows. Josephus F13 suggests the same, when speaking of the most holy place; he says, that it was inaccessible to the priests, that it might be as heaven to God.

But into heaven itself;
not the visible heavens, the airy and starry ones, through which he passed, but the third heaven, the habitation of God, angels, and glorified saints: this shows that heaven is a place; that Christ, as man, was out of it when on earth; and that at his ascension he entered into it, having done the work he came about, and that with acceptance: the end of his entrance was

now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Christ, as God, was always in his presence, from everlasting; as Mediator, he was with him in the council of peace; while he was here on earth his Father was with him, he was not alone; but now in his human nature he is at his right hand, where he appears before him, as a favourite before his Prince, on the behalf of another, or as an advocate on the behalf of his client: Christ appears in the court of heaven for his elect, by representing their persons; by presenting himself, his blood, sacrifice, and righteousness, before God on their account; by introducing them into the presence of God, and offering up their prayers with the incense of his mediation; by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance; not that he did not appear before God for the saints of the Old Testament, for he was the angel of God's presence then, though he did not appear then in the manner he does now, as the Lamb in the midst of the throne, as if it had been slain; but it denotes the continuance and perpetuity of his appearance for his people; he is ever interceding for them.

Hebrews 9 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

And that conflict with nothing that was stated by me. He enters in, by means of blood, like the high priest of old. Yet instead of retreating, He stays. He is in God's presence for us, interceding. He ever lives to make intercession for us.

But He does that on the basis of His completed once for all death and once for all entry by means of blood into God's presence.

The aspects that already happened are the same aspects that are described as the action by the high priest on the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16. Those are sacrifice, then entry to present blood.

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said:
The type is spelled out in Hebrews 9:7 which you already admitted Bob.

It is not investigation of cases but blood presentation:

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

It is not a goat that is sacrificed but Christ.
It is not a sinner that enters the sanctuary but Christ
It is not sprinkling in the sanctuary but rather Christ's mediation claiming His blood case-by-case as sinners repent.

BobRyan said:
Inside the OT Sanctuary -- The TYPE: is blood sprinkled

Inside the Heavenly Sanctuary – the antitype for “blood sprinkled” is Christ our High Priest claiming “my blood my blood” for specific sins, for forgiveness, our “advocate with the Father” –

1 John 1:9 -- 2John 2:1 “IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness…if anyone sins we HAVE and Advocate with the Father” --- the daily service is personal and interactive for the one confessing sin.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
The crux of the point is addressed here

There is no good way around that

Of course there is Bob. Because the "offer often" happens in the context of entry, stated about Jesus, and compared to the entry of the high priest with blood.

Then it says if He had to present often He would have to suffer often.

You are claiming both mean death. But it makes not sense to sa

"if he had to die often then he would also have to die often."

And that is not what is said. Rather it is said if He entered to present Himself often he would also have to die often.

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said:
Of course there is Bob. Because the "offer often" happens in the context of entry,

One cross, one crucifixion, one entry into the sanctuary from that altar where the blood sacrifice was "offered up". Offer the sacrifice on the cross once for all then enter the sanctuary once for all, so then to offer often is to suffer often.

To "offer often" - on the cross - the sin offering offered up in smoke - is to "suffer often" as we see in Heb 9:25-26

Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
It is not sprinkling in the sanctuary but rather Christ's mediation claiming His blood case-by-case as sinners repent.

Bob the sprinkling in the sanctuary was described as the means of atonement of the sins of all the people. It was one ministration for all the sins of all time.

Jesus did that in the first century. He made one death, and one entry by means of blood.

THEN after that we come to Him to avail ourselves of it.

The action by the high priest in the type was presenting atoning blood. It was not investigation.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

It is speaking of the repetition of the Day of Atonement YEARLY Bob. It happened every year. And yes, that did involve another death, of another animal, each year. But it points out that was not what happened here.

He entered to present Himself in God's presence, compared to the entry of the high priest with blood.

And He did not have to do it yearly.

BobRyan · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said:
Bob said:

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters he Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own.
.

The crux of the point is addressed here

BobRyan said:
Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

Heb 9:

24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,

Christ entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would OFFER HIMSELF (on the cross - as a sin offering) Often, as the high pries enters the Holy Place year by year WITH BLOOD (blood already offered up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering) that is not his own. OTHERWISE would He (CHRIST) have needed to SUFFER (on the cross as a sin offering) often since the foundation of the world; but now once (one sin offering) at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin BY THE SACRIFICE of Himself (on the cross as a sin offering). 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once (As a sin offering on he cross) to bear the sins of many,

As we see in the above -

Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

There is no good way around that

tall73 said:
Of course there is Bob. Because the "offer often" happens in the context of entry,

which does not help you because the one entry into the sanctuary is only after the one offering up of the sin offering on the altar of burnt offering.

In Heb 9 Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

The high priest did not have to sacrifice another animal each time he sprinkled something with that one blood sacrifice... "sprinkle often" did not = "suffer often"

tall73 said:
Then it says if He had to present often He would have to suffer often.

A Gill notes in heaven Christ constantly presents his righteousness and sacrifice on our behalf - but sprinkle often does not mean suffer often, and present on behalf of a sinner often does not mean to suffer often.

BobRyan said:
John Gill on Heb 9:24

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands…
The most holy place in the tabernacle of Moses, or in the temple built by Solomon, and rebuilt by Zerubbabel, and repaired by Herod,

which are the figures of the true;
that is, the most holy place in the tabernacle and temple, was a figure of the truth of that type; see (Hebrews 9:9) as follows. Josephus F13 suggests the same, when speaking of the most holy place; he says, that it was inaccessible to the priests, that it might be as heaven to God.

But into heaven itself;
not the visible heavens, the airy and starry ones, through which he passed, but the third heaven, the habitation of God, angels, and glorified saints: this shows that heaven is a place; that Christ, as man, was out of it when on earth; and that at his ascension he entered into it, having done the work he came about, and that with acceptance: the end of his entrance was

now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Christ, as God, was always in his presence, from everlasting; as Mediator, he was with him in the council of peace; while he was here on earth his Father was with him, he was not alone; but now in his human nature he is at his right hand, where he appears before him, as a favourite before his Prince, on the behalf of another, or as an advocate on the behalf of his client: Christ appears in the court of heaven for his elect, by representing their persons; by presenting himself, his blood, sacrifice, and righteousness, before God on their account; by introducing them into the presence of God, and offering up their prayers with the incense of his mediation; by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance; not that he did not appear before God for the saints of the Old Testament, for he was the angel of God's presence then, though he did not appear then in the manner he does now, as the Lamb in the midst of the throne, as if it had been slain; but it denotes the continuance and perpetuity of his appearance for his people; he is ever interceding for them.

Hebrews 9 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

"by presenting them to himself, and to his Father, and obtaining every blessing for them. And this he does "now", since his entrance; not that he did not appear before God for the saints of the Old Testament, for he was the angel of God's presence then, though he did not appear then in the manner he does now, as the Lamb in the midst of the throne, as if it had been slain; but it denotes the continuance and perpetuity of his appearance for his people; he is ever interceding for them."

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said: ↑

If you build up a whole system not supported by the text, and call it the type, then you are looking for the wrong thing in the fulfillment.

BobRyan said:
You have already been shown that the pre-advent judgment out of books in Dan 7 is a judgment of case-by-case deeds as Rev 20 also reminds us when judgment in heaven is based out of what is recorded in books.

And you were shown that the cleansing of the sanctuary "solution" in Dan 8 is called the "judgment" in the Dan 7 parallel to it -

Bob, Daniel 7 and 8 are not Leviticus 16, and are not the type. You are claiming they are the fulfillment. But to do so you have re-invented the type. You have to find investigation of cases in the type. Instead we see atoning blood.

as also even the Jews admit that the "Day of Atonement" is a day of judgment.

And they say that is based on tradition. It certainly is not based on Lev. 16.

The fact that parables and types "Cannot be made to walk on all fours" is not exactly the surprise some may have at first supposed it to be.

The fact that you cannot find what you claim in the type at all is a surprise.

Having said that - we agree that everyone has free will and you can choose to accept or reject as you wish. But as a Seventh-day Adventist the texts referenced in those posts look pretty compelling. Anyone who wishes to differ may certainly do so.

No, it is not compelling that the type mentions no investigation, but you claim investigation is the type.

The type and the summary of the type in Hebrews 9:7 do reference atoning blood. So the fulfillment has to be that as well.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

tall73 said: ↑

Of course there is Bob. Because the "offer often" happens in the context of entry,

BobRyan said:
which does not help you because the one entry into the sanctuary is only after the one offering up of the sin offering on the altar of burnt offering.

Of course it helps. The high priest entry with blood is not the death.

Yes, the death already happened. But we saw, and you admitted, that 9:7 is the description of the type, which uses the same word for the presentation of the blood.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The priest goes in, taking blood, which he presents/offers for the sins of the people. That is the description of the type, in the context of spelling out the scene of the earthly sanctuary, and the use of each compartment. It is a reference to the entry, not the death.

And the same is true in 9:24-25:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

Christ entered, that is the context. And that entry was into heaven itself, to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. It was not to present Himself repeatedly as the high priest ENTERS

The context is all of entry. And then it says if he had to present Himself often He would have to suffer often. But He doesn't. He did it once. He entered once for all by means of blood Bob:

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

That includes the entry on the Day of Atonement which required blood.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
In Heb 9 Offer Often = Suffer Often on the cross… not “sprinkle often” see vs 25-26

Incorrect, because the high priest didn't ENTER to suffer.

The suffering often would be required if like the high priest on earth Jesus had to do it yearly, every year. He did not. He did it once.

Now Bob, this all started based on Ballenger. it should be noted that you owe an apology to Ballenger, Davidson, Andross, Young, etc. You claimed that Jesus did not go into the second compartment, within the veil. But then you promptly admitted He inaugurated, which means He did go within the veil, because it involved the whole sanctuary. So you were incorrect, and those were all correct. And it was Ballenger's agitation that first led to that acknowledgment by the Adventist church in Andross' response. Andross noted the inauguration required entry into the second compartment. And those Adventist scholars since have had to admit it as well. Just as you eventually admitted it.

And that entry was once for all, and was by means of blood, which was only necessary for the second compartment. So it includes that entry by means of blood on the Day of Atonement:

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

tall73 · Nov 20, 2021

BobRyan said:
Hebrews 9 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

I notice you didn't post his comments on verse 25:

as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; not his own, nor other men's, but the blood of goats and calves; but Christ entered into heaven with his own blood, he having been altar, priest, and sacrifice: the high priest went into the most holy place every year, but Christ has entered into heaven once for all, where he sits down and continues, having done his work effectually.

Seventh-day Adventists affirm "sola scriptura testing" AND The 1Cor 12 gift of prophecy

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