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agreed - but our belief #21 does not specify "a tenth" - it speaks of tithe and leaves it to the reader to find out what the Bible means by tithe.A tenth is 10%,
A tenth is 10%. This individual SDA church donation web page suggested giving 20%. .
So we should all use our best judgment?When you find that sola scriptura testing is revealing a problem in your current situation - and all else fails -- look for another fellowship that has that part right (if your own group refuses to accept light on that point)
So we should all use our best judgment?
Sounds good to me.Well you are already a member of your denomination as you state - and then you find that something in your primary set of doctrines for your denomination is in conflict with Bible teaching - so presumably you ask to discuss this with someone in your church after you have a pretty good understanding of what the Bible says. If that discussion does not resolve it for you - then look for some group that has solved that problem according to the Bible. If that group has better Bible doctrine as a rule ( better than where you are now) - then consider making a move.
People have made changes in that fashion once or twice in their lives and end up in a much better place usually.
Christianity Today in its Jan/Feb 2015 article -- said that the Seventh-day Adventist church was at that time the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.
So why does the Seventh-day Adventist (SDA) church still test its doctrines sola-scriptura instead of sola-tradition? Wouldn't that mean it is risking being "orthodox" in the Biblical sense but not "orthodox" in the traditional sense?
The Bible shows us a clash can exist between tradition and scripture in Mark 7:6-13 in Christ's day.
Mark 7:
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
"Word of God" = "Commandments of God" = "Moses said" -- according to Christ in Mark 7
Here we see Christ slam-hammers the one-true-nation-church of His day - started by God at Sinai. And He does so - with a "sola scriptura" test of a given tradition.
Acts 17:11 Paul himself is tested "Sola scriptura" to SEE IF the things he as an Apostle taught "were so".
"11 Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, studied the Scriptures daily to see whether these things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) were so."
In Gal 1:6-9 Paul argues that if we read the Bible and see what the NT authors proclaimed as the Gospel and the full acceptance of scripture as the Word of God - and then find that someone comes along and contradicts that Word - they are to be rejected.
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Official belief statements - are tested sola scriptura and they are here:
What do Seventh Day Adventists Really Believe? | Adventist.org
The opening statement at that page says this:
"Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church’s understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture."
1. Some people will object saying that you cannot really find out if something is true or not unless you add tradition to the Bible - but in that case the sola-scriptura position above should be easy to test and see if it proves its case using scripture alone.
2. Other people will object saying they didn't know the Adventist church limited itself to a sola-scriptura test. But in that case it should be easy to check out the statements there to see if sola scriptura is "enough" to make the case you find there.
But to be fair, that ignores the elephant in the room. Sure, the SDA does not test its doctrines against the ancient traditions of the church. No one denies it. But it does test everything, including scriptural interpretation, against the doctrine of Ellen White,
and having carefully studied SDA doctrine, it seems to me that several unique beliefs the Adventists have about eschatology, the alleged identity between our Lord and Savior and the Archangel Michael, soul sleep, annhilationism, vegetarianism, the idea that worship on Sunday is somehow sinful, and many other points, do not really stand on their own merit as purely biblical doctrines; rather, they exist because of the continuing influence of Ellen White
and the lack of objective criticism of her within the SDA church, and the fact that ordinary members of the Adventist church are not sufficiently empowered to challenge her doctrine and call for reform along more strictly Biblical lines.
So, I would argue, the SDA church certainly would seem to its members to be Sola Scriptura, but much of that scriptural study which is occurring is being conducted with a confirmation bias, in order to find proof texts for the writings of EGW,
The Liturgist said: ↑
So, I would argue, the SDA church certainly would seem to its members to be Sola Scriptura, but much of that scriptural study which is occurring is being conducted with a confirmation bias, in order to find proof texts for the writings of EGW,
ChristianityToday lists the SDA denomination as the 5th largest and fastest growing Christian denomination in the world - and Barna lists them as one of the best at reaching out to those who are not already SDA or former SDA or even Christian at all.
If your suggestion above were true - we should not be growing at all because as we rigorously take every single new person through all 28 - we would find that no new person will accept because they have no pre-existing confirmation bias toward someone they already do not think is a prophet.
In fact if your suggestion were true - the vast majority of the SDA denomination in Europe could not even exist since that group accepts everything except Ellen White's prophetic ministry.
There are a lot of objective metrics that point to your suggestion having some challenges.
You are making a great case for why this thread should NOT have been started by BobRyan out here in the open where a real sola-scriptura discussion could be had - but rather BobRyan should have posted this in the one and only SAFE-SDA forum on CF where no one could really challenge me in this thread and I could make sola-scriptura claims for the SDA denomination all day long without much of any challenge.
So if that is the case - then who in the world started this thread out here and craftily got "me" to agree to participate on it??
hmmm that would be "me" who did that to me. Nice going "me"
So, I would argue, the SDA church certainly would seem to its members to be Sola Scriptura, but much of that scriptural study which is occurring is being conducted with a confirmation bias, in order to find proof texts for the writings of EGW,
The speed at which the SDA is growing has no bearing on the validity of its doctrines. .
Well, I don’t see the point in having a Sola Scriptura discussion on SDA doctrine as long as that doctrine is defined by EGW.
If there were cases where the SDA actually rejected substantial portions of EGW, just as how the Lutherans reject much of what Martin Luther taught, .
put it another way, there is no other denomination that elevates one deceased individual to the status of an infallible prophet and doctrinal authority.
I suspect a number of other Christian denominations would also choose to stand on this same "sola scriptura testing" platform - as did many Protestant Reformers.
Interesting thread, Bob. I always respect your scholarship and your desire to follow the word of God as much as you are able. What I am wondering, based on your post that I quoted, is what are the fruits of the doctrine of sola scriptura? We have multiple denominations all claiming sola scriptura. They don't all agree doctrinally.
The question is does the human conscience submit to sola scriptura, or is sola scriptura subject to human conscience?
I don't want this to be a gotcha question, and I ask with all due respect.
Is this Christian Animal Farm? We are all sola scriptura here, some are more sola scriptura than others? (parody of George Orwell's Animal Farm)
The Bible says that human conscience cannot be trusted. There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25.
Is it Luther and the Lutherans? Missouri synod or evangelical?, John Calvin and the Presbyterians? PCUSA or PCA? John Wesley and the Methodists? Queen Elizabeth and the Anglicans? Ellen White and the SDA? Each of those denominations of sola scriptura requires the addition of tradition to guide their flock as they don't all agree. How do you resolve this?
as an aside, I did buy and read, From Sabbath to Sunday, Interesting book. I'd like to talk with you about it sometime. The one point the author made was the change from Saturday to Sunday worship came from the Church of Rome. I would agree with that, and Rome was where both the Apostle Peter and Paul were. Your quote from Galatians comes from Paul, should we not listen to Paul?
Interesting thread, Bob. I always respect your scholarship and your desire to follow the word of God as much as you are able. What I am wondering, based on your post that I quoted, is what are the fruits of the doctrine of sola scriptura? We have multiple denominations all claiming sola scriptura. They don't all agree doctrinally. The question is does the human conscience submit to sola scriptura, or is sola scriptura subject to human conscience?
Q: What I am wondering, based on your post that I quoted, is what are the fruits of the doctrine of sola scriptura?
S: We have multiple denominations all claiming sola scriptura. They don't all agree doctrinally.
I'll answer this question with a question:Q: The question is does the human conscience submit to sola scriptura, or is sola scriptura subject to human conscience?
Who makes the determination which of those groups has the correct understanding of the Bible and which one does not if they both claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit?Well you are already a member of your denomination as you state - and then you find that something in your primary set of doctrines for your denomination is in conflict with Bible teaching - so presumably you ask to discuss this with someone in your church after you have a pretty good understanding of what the Bible says. If that discussion does not resolve it for you - then look for some group that has solved that problem according to the Bible. If that group has better Bible doctrine as a rule ( better than where you are now) - then consider making a move.
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