Seventh-day Adventist Church is Christian - not a cult

[BobRyan]

Christians have eternal life right now, have already passed judgement unto salvation or not

Rom 2:4-16 talks about the result of Judgment --

But other than that - I do agree that 1 John 5:3 says we may know that we have eternal life.

Dan 7 predicts a future judgment
Rom 2:16 predicts a future judgment
2 Cor 5:10 predicts a future judgment
Rev 11 says the judgment begins with the cases of the dead - starts with Adam in other words

Dan 7 states that while the judgment is going on - the saints are being persecuted and that persecution of the saints only ends when the judgment completes.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Rom 2:4-16 talks about the result of Judgment --

But other than that - I do agree that 1 John 5:3 says we may know that we have eternal life.

Dan 7 predicts a future judgment
Rom 2:16 predicts a future judgment
2 Cor 5:10 predicts a future judgment
Rev 11 says the judgment begins with the cases of the dead - starts with Adam in other words

Dan 7 states that while the judgment is going on - the saints are being persecuted and that persecution of the saints only ends when the judgment completes.

We know that we have eternal life right now in the beloved, and have already passed from spiritual death to spiritual life, so only judgement remaining will be for our good works to see if earned eternal rewards, but nothing to do with keeping or losing our salvation

 

[BobRyan]

We know that we have eternal life right now

In the first John 5 sense that is true -
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1

but Romans 2 is very specific that in the future judgment the "result" of being judged in the future is eternal life given.

Rom 2:
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

============

Romans 6 - the outcome of living a godly life as a born-again Christian
Romans 6:22
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

 

[YeshuaFan]

In the first John 5 sense that is true -
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1

but Romans 2 is very specific that in the future judgment the "result" of being judged in the future is eternal life given.

Rom 2:
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

============

Romans 6 - the outcome of living a godly life as a born-again Christian
Romans 6:22
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

When God saves a lost sinner, he seals them with the Holy Spirit, they have passed over from Kingdom of Satan to Kingdom of Christ, shall never be lost again, as God declares them right then Holy and blameless in the Beloved, eternally justified

 

[BobRyan]

When God saves a lost sinner, he seals them

God causes the new birth the moment someone accepts the Gospel.

We are then a new creation according to 2 Cor 5.

But we still have free will.

So then --- Rom 11 it is

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Branches "IN ME" -- ie -- IN Christ John 15:1-7 cut off, removed and burned-- in some cases

Rom 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. (i.e. -- no "arbitrary selection")
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
... 16 "on the day when according to my Gospel - God will judge...

Gal 5:1-4 -- "you have FALLEN from Grace - you have been SEVERED from Christ" - is the warning in some cases

1 Cor 9: 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

 

[YeshuaFan]

God causes the new birth the moment someone accepts the Gospel.

We are then a new creation according to 2 Cor 5.

But we still have free will.

So then --- Rom 11 it is

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Branches "IN ME" -- ie -- IN Christ John 15:1-7 cut off, removed and burned-- in some cases

Rom 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. (i.e. -- no "arbitrary selection")
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
... 16 "on the day when according to my Gospel - God will judge...

Gal 5:1-4 -- "you have FALLEN from Grace - you have been SEVERED from Christ" - is the warning in some cases

1 Cor 9: 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

We have eternal life in Jesus, and having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, saved until we receive the glorified body at time of the Second Coming

 

[BobRyan]

We have eternal life in Jesus,

God causes the new birth the moment someone accepts the Gospel.

We are then a new creation according to 2 Cor 5.

But we still have free will.

==== so then we "keep reading" the scriptures

So then --- Rom 11 it is

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Branches "IN ME" -- ie -- IN Christ John 15:1-7 cut off, removed and burned-- in some cases

Rom 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. (i.e. -- no "arbitrary selection")
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
... 16 "on the day when according to my Gospel - God will judge...

Gal 5:1-4 -- "you have FALLEN from Grace - you have been SEVERED from Christ" - is the warning in some cases

1 Cor 9: 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

======================

Your response makes no room at all for those scriptures above.

You have free will of course
you can ignore all the texts that you wish.

But for the rest of us ...

 

[YeshuaFan]

God causes the new birth the moment someone accepts the Gospel.

We are then a new creation according to 2 Cor 5.

But we still have free will.

==== so then we "keep reading" the scriptures

So then --- Rom 11 it is

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Branches "IN ME" -- ie -- IN Christ John 15:1-7 cut off, removed and burned-- in some cases

Rom 2:11-13
11 For there is no partiality with God. (i.e. -- no "arbitrary selection")
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
... 16 "on the day when according to my Gospel - God will judge...

Gal 5:1-4 -- "you have FALLEN from Grace - you have been SEVERED from Christ" - is the warning in some cases

1 Cor 9: 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the Gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

======================

Your response makes no room at all for those scriptures above.

You have free will of course
you can ignore all the texts that you wish.

But for the rest of us ...

Jesus stated to us clearly that ALL whom the Father give to Him shall be saved forever, as he will lose NOONE, and he will be raising up ALL saved by him

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus stated to us clearly that ALL whom the Father give to Him shall be saved forever, as he will lose NOONE, and he will be raising up ALL saved by him

Jesus stated to us clearly that the forgiveness-revoked warning of Matt 18 applies to His followers

Matt 18
29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

That is the same forgiveness-revoked teaching that we find in Ezek 18. Christ confirms that it applies to His followers as well.

Christ confirms it again in John 15:1-8 -- with "branches in Me" that are cut off and burned in the fire.

Gal 5:4 "you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace"

We do well to pay attention to scripture even when it is inconvenient

 

[YeshuaFan]

Jesus stated to us clearly that the forgiveness-revoked warning of Matt 18 applies to His followers

Matt 18
29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

That is the same forgiveness-revoked teaching that we find in Ezek 18. Christ confirms that it applies to His followers as well.

Christ confirms it again in John 15:1-8 -- with "branches in Me" that are cut off and burned in the fire.

Gal 5:4 "you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace"

We do well to pay attention to scripture even when it is inconvenient

Ezekiel has NOTHING to do with eternal loss of eternal life, as written to the situation that if a Father commits a capital crime and gets the death penalty applied, his son will not be guilty, as each person guilty for own sins

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel has NOTHING to do with eternal loss of eternal life, as written to the situation that if a Father commits a capital crime and gets the death penalty applied, his son will not be guilty, as each person guilty for own sins

Ezek 18 says only the wicked die.

That is no true in normal life as we all know. It is only true in terms of the second death vs eternal life

 

[YeshuaFan]

Ezek 18 says only the wicked die.

That is no true in normal life as we all know. It is only true in terms of the second death vs eternal life

There is no eternal death for those right now in Christ Jesus, have already passed from death to life, and right now have eternal eternal life, and that cannot ever be lost

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There is no eternal death for those right now in Christ Jesus, have already passed from death to life, and right now have eternal eternal life, and that cannot ever be lost

Only God knows the wheat from the tares. Both groups grow together and both groups profess to worship God. One is false, one is not. No one believes they are not saved, even if they are in a lost state according to the Bible Rom 8:7-8 its why there is a Judgement on the last day John 12:48. We do not judge ourselves, Jesus does 2 Cor 5:10 why many believers on that last day will say Lord Lord, but Jesus won't know them because they did not do the will of the Father and practiced lawlessness (without law) Mat 7:21-23

 

[YeshuaFan]

Only God knows the wheat from the tares. Both groups grow together and both groups profess to worship God. One is false, one is not. No one believes they are not saved, even if they are in a lost state according to the Bible Rom 8:7-8 its why there is a Judgement on the last day John 12:48. We do not judge ourselves, Jesus does 2 Cor 5:10 why many believers on that last day will say Lord Lord, but Jesus won't know them because they did not do the will of the Father and practiced lawlessness (without law) Mat 7:21-23

Those will be NOT the true saved by Him, but those who had a wrong Jesus, such as JW and Mormons do, or else were trusting not in Him but in their own good works to save them in the end, as its salvation by obedience to them, and not by grace as bible teaches us

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Those will be NOT the true saved by Him, but those who had a wrong Jesus, such as JW and Mormons do, or else were trusting not in Him but in their own good works to save them in the end, as its salvation by obedience to them, and not by grace as bible teaches us

There is no Scripture that says we are saved by grace alone. We are saved by grace through faith Eph 2:8 Faith is a big word and a good example of what faith looks like read Hebrews 11

We are not saved by our works, but our works demonstrate if we are saved. If we have a right relationship with Christ we will do the things He asks, not to be saved but because one is saved. Think about your relationship with your father and mother- did you show respect and love by following what they asked, or doing what you wanted disregarding their wisdom that they knew what was best. Our Heavenly Father is no different. 1 John 5:3

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

This is the faith that reconciles us.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel has NOTHING to do with eternal loss of eternal life, as written to the situation that if a Father commits a capital crime and gets the death penalty applied, his son will not be guilty, as each person guilty for own sins

Ezek 18 says only the wicked die.

That is not true in normal life as we all know. It is only true in terms of the second death vs eternal life

so then ignoring that detail in scripture entirely we have :

There is no eternal death for those right now in Christ Jesus, have already passed from death to life, and right now have eternal eternal life, and that cannot ever be lost

What NT text s - what teaching of Jesus is there to "ignore entirely"?

Jesus stated to us clearly that the forgiveness-revoked warning of Matt 18 applies to His followers

Matt 18
29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

That is the same forgiveness-revoked teaching that we find in Ezek 18. Christ confirms that it applies to His followers as well.

Christ confirms it again in John 15:1-8 -- with "branches in Me" that are cut off and burned in the fire.

Gal 5:4 "you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace"

We do well to pay attention to scripture even when it is inconvenient

I prefer the actual Bible -


But you have free will and can believe whatever you wish - I am just showing my beliefs taught "in scripture"