A
Apollos1
Guest
Tychicum -
Thanks for your reply.
You said to me... You don't believe what Paul wrote was inspired by God ... ? The risen Lord Jesus Christ's very words ... ? Maybe you can elaborate.
You must have read what I posted too fast. Of course I believe what Paul wrote was inspired by God and I have nothing “against him” as you seem to infer. I just don’t give Paul the pre-eminense that dispys do. Dispys say that Paul’s writings are MORE important than any other scirptures and to be given “special” consideration – because of the misplaced emphasis given him by misunderstanding when and where he belongs in the whole scheme of NT writings.
This “special” emphasis is errantly derived in part from a mis-reading of Ephesians 3:5, and I have seen 1 Corinthiand 2:10f used as well. Neither passage says that the revelation of Jesus was given to Paul ONLY – dispys must read that INTO the passage. The use of the word “NOW” (Eph. 3:5, Col. 1:26) is not correctly recognized as meaning at this current time, but is rather used to claim revelation is just “now” (at this moment) being made known. Bi-gospelism adherents in fact make Paul their idol and his writings the altar at which to make sacrifice.
Jesus earthly ministry by his own declaration was to Israel alone ... you claim that as yours but not by Paul?
What most dispys refuse to recognize is what happened AFTER the cross. AFTER the cross Jesus told His disciples to go ALL nations – Matt. 28:18f, Mark 16:15-16. For some reason dispys can see that before the cross the ministry was limited (because of the Old covenant). But after the cross they can not see or accept the gospel (now only made possible in the cross), not the Law, was ready for all nations. Even after the ascension of Christ, He affirms that His disciples were to go into all the world – Acts 1:8.
But once again dispys say Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about – somehow everything God had planned from before the foundation of the world was going to be “set aside” (ei. man overcomes God). Seeing world evangelism scriptures as too problematic for the dispy theory, the “set aside program” was conjured up in hopes of offsetting plain passages. This “set aside program” is drived from a misunderstanding of Romans 11. But even more importantly too many “religious” groups set their attention on the nation of Israel and some form of a physical kingdom, when in fact, the view of salvation after the cross should be world-wide and one of a spiritual nature. God is ready to save the world, all in the same fashion.
In Galatians 3:28 Paul says - There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one [man] in Christ Jesus.
Dispys don’t really believe this – because ALL are NOT one in Christ. Dispys make provision OUTSIDE of Christ for physical Israel, while scripture states ALL must be IN Christ to find salvation. There is NO salvation ANYWHERE else! In Christ is what God has provided to save the world (this includes Israel)!
Peter said it was "hard to be understood" (2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV) ... you think that Peter was miss stating this and that Peter understood it all from the very beginning?
You need to maintain the CONTEXT of this passage. First let us note that Peter NEVER says he did not understand some things in Paul’s letters. This is the impression dispys want to give to this passage to make it seem that Peter and Paul must have had different teachings – they didn’t !
Writing to the “third” party, Peter informs the readers that some things are hard to understand, and it is these “hard” things that the “ignorant and unstable” twist to their disaster. Not Peter, not the faithful reading Peter’s letter, but the “ignorant and unstable”.
(I will quickly remind you that Peter was “guided into ALL truth” via the HS as promised by Jesus – John 14:26, 16:13. Did the HS leave something out, you think?)
I'm not sure what you are saying here (Acts 15/Gal. 2:2) ... are you saying that Paul and the 12 by agreement taught something different than they were to keep the whole law?
Why would they keep the Law? – it was nailed to the cross. I had already said the disciples were given a new commission to take the GOSPEL – not the Law – to the entire world – Matthew 28:18f, Mark 16:15f. I think you are missing something here due to your preconception.
But the purpose of the meeting in Acts 15 was to squelch error by getting together and affirming everyone was teaching the SAME thing! They were! What was the conclusion? Read the passage you quoted, Acts 15:11 - But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they. Peter did not say one thing about Law keeping. Peter said “we” (Jew) as “they” (Gentile) shall be saved the SAME WAY – by the grace of the Lord Jesus. How did you miss that?
As far as Acts 21:20, it should not be surprising that after 1500 years of observance there were Jews “which believed” (in Christ) and yet were still zealous of the Law – old habits are hard to break. This does not mean that they were teaching people to observe the Law. To have this thought in mind at this point in your reading through the book of Acts shows you did not learn what happened in Acts 10, 11, and 15. A little study will help you here…
Having answered all of the above, perhaps you could answer or offer more detail about these points that were also in my post above:
Ephesians 3:5 – What makes you think (if you do) that Paul ONLY received revelation pertinent to the gospel?
Synecdoche – Have you any say about this and how “gospel” in used in the NT??
Water Baptism – Can you answer my argument as to satisfy dispy theology? Paul’s practice & preaching taught water baptism throughout his ministry.
The “Commission” – Just where is the “commission” that Brock claims is in 2 Corinthains 5 and Ephesians 3? Must one use “feel good” language to see it?
Thanks for your reply.
You said to me... You don't believe what Paul wrote was inspired by God ... ? The risen Lord Jesus Christ's very words ... ? Maybe you can elaborate.
You must have read what I posted too fast. Of course I believe what Paul wrote was inspired by God and I have nothing “against him” as you seem to infer. I just don’t give Paul the pre-eminense that dispys do. Dispys say that Paul’s writings are MORE important than any other scirptures and to be given “special” consideration – because of the misplaced emphasis given him by misunderstanding when and where he belongs in the whole scheme of NT writings.
This “special” emphasis is errantly derived in part from a mis-reading of Ephesians 3:5, and I have seen 1 Corinthiand 2:10f used as well. Neither passage says that the revelation of Jesus was given to Paul ONLY – dispys must read that INTO the passage. The use of the word “NOW” (Eph. 3:5, Col. 1:26) is not correctly recognized as meaning at this current time, but is rather used to claim revelation is just “now” (at this moment) being made known. Bi-gospelism adherents in fact make Paul their idol and his writings the altar at which to make sacrifice.
Jesus earthly ministry by his own declaration was to Israel alone ... you claim that as yours but not by Paul?
What most dispys refuse to recognize is what happened AFTER the cross. AFTER the cross Jesus told His disciples to go ALL nations – Matt. 28:18f, Mark 16:15-16. For some reason dispys can see that before the cross the ministry was limited (because of the Old covenant). But after the cross they can not see or accept the gospel (now only made possible in the cross), not the Law, was ready for all nations. Even after the ascension of Christ, He affirms that His disciples were to go into all the world – Acts 1:8.
But once again dispys say Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about – somehow everything God had planned from before the foundation of the world was going to be “set aside” (ei. man overcomes God). Seeing world evangelism scriptures as too problematic for the dispy theory, the “set aside program” was conjured up in hopes of offsetting plain passages. This “set aside program” is drived from a misunderstanding of Romans 11. But even more importantly too many “religious” groups set their attention on the nation of Israel and some form of a physical kingdom, when in fact, the view of salvation after the cross should be world-wide and one of a spiritual nature. God is ready to save the world, all in the same fashion.
In Galatians 3:28 Paul says - There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one [man] in Christ Jesus.
Dispys don’t really believe this – because ALL are NOT one in Christ. Dispys make provision OUTSIDE of Christ for physical Israel, while scripture states ALL must be IN Christ to find salvation. There is NO salvation ANYWHERE else! In Christ is what God has provided to save the world (this includes Israel)!
Peter said it was "hard to be understood" (2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV) ... you think that Peter was miss stating this and that Peter understood it all from the very beginning?
You need to maintain the CONTEXT of this passage. First let us note that Peter NEVER says he did not understand some things in Paul’s letters. This is the impression dispys want to give to this passage to make it seem that Peter and Paul must have had different teachings – they didn’t !
Writing to the “third” party, Peter informs the readers that some things are hard to understand, and it is these “hard” things that the “ignorant and unstable” twist to their disaster. Not Peter, not the faithful reading Peter’s letter, but the “ignorant and unstable”.
(I will quickly remind you that Peter was “guided into ALL truth” via the HS as promised by Jesus – John 14:26, 16:13. Did the HS leave something out, you think?)
I'm not sure what you are saying here (Acts 15/Gal. 2:2) ... are you saying that Paul and the 12 by agreement taught something different than they were to keep the whole law?
Why would they keep the Law? – it was nailed to the cross. I had already said the disciples were given a new commission to take the GOSPEL – not the Law – to the entire world – Matthew 28:18f, Mark 16:15f. I think you are missing something here due to your preconception.
But the purpose of the meeting in Acts 15 was to squelch error by getting together and affirming everyone was teaching the SAME thing! They were! What was the conclusion? Read the passage you quoted, Acts 15:11 - But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they. Peter did not say one thing about Law keeping. Peter said “we” (Jew) as “they” (Gentile) shall be saved the SAME WAY – by the grace of the Lord Jesus. How did you miss that?
As far as Acts 21:20, it should not be surprising that after 1500 years of observance there were Jews “which believed” (in Christ) and yet were still zealous of the Law – old habits are hard to break. This does not mean that they were teaching people to observe the Law. To have this thought in mind at this point in your reading through the book of Acts shows you did not learn what happened in Acts 10, 11, and 15. A little study will help you here…
Having answered all of the above, perhaps you could answer or offer more detail about these points that were also in my post above:
Ephesians 3:5 – What makes you think (if you do) that Paul ONLY received revelation pertinent to the gospel?
Synecdoche – Have you any say about this and how “gospel” in used in the NT??
Water Baptism – Can you answer my argument as to satisfy dispy theology? Paul’s practice & preaching taught water baptism throughout his ministry.
The “Commission” – Just where is the “commission” that Brock claims is in 2 Corinthains 5 and Ephesians 3? Must one use “feel good” language to see it?
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