Setting boundaries in marriage

[Rembrandtfan]

I have an observation. It seems to me that those who object strongly to setting boundaries are those who violate boundaries... People who have been victimized by people not respecting their boundaries seem to welcome boundaries but people who are the violaters kind of like it the way it is....That is one reason why it is important for a person to set boundaries without waiting for the agreement of the person who is violating their boundaries....

Good point.

And sometimes, people who have been victims of having their own boundaries violated, will object to the idea of setting boundaries because they have been programmed by their perpetrators to think they are being selfish if they do so.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Amen, I agree with all of you...

I love the poem in my signature.. here, let me find the whole poem, I couldn't fit it all in....

Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate,
but that we are powerful beyond measure.

It is our light, not our darkness, that frightens us.
We ask ourselves,
Who am I to be brilliant,gorgeous, handsome, talented and fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.

Your playing small does not serve the world.​

There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.
We were born to make manifest the glory of God within us.
It is not just in some, it is in everyone.

And, as we let our own light shine,
we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others.​

You see, this poem means sooooo much to me on many different levels. I've always been one that wants to protect others feelings and I have done that by shrinking in timidity... because I don't want anyone to feel insecure by my confidence, don't want anyone to feel challenged or less of themselves by feeling confident in being myself. A Godly man gave me a copy of this poem once... and it has been liberating, inline with what God has been already doing in me. I think this also relates to setting boundaries because when we expect others to treat us right, we also give other people the confidence to stand up for themselves and expect the same from us. If I offend someone, I want them to tell me rather then being passive and holding it in. I won't know unless they tell me, sure, sometimes I might feel embarrased or even mad at them for standing up to me, but truth is that people with a healthy sense of boundaries welcome that, and they respect the boundaries or god given right of others to live their lives independant of my offensive behaviors as well. I learned by example... when I see others set healthy boundaries it serves as an example to me and gives me an idea of how I can respond when I feel like my own personal boundaries are being violated. My husband in particular has been one of those people in my life... he has set boundaries with me and it's really upset me... but since i've matured and have realized his right to be treated rightly, i respect those boundaries. Good observation guys!

HB​

 

[mkgal1]

I think some people really do have a hard time not seeing boundaries as selfishness.... this includes people who try to control you then rebuke you because you resisted their control over you... pointing the finger at you as if something is wrong with you.

That is so true! It makes me wonder about the personalities again. Since I am mostly a golden retriever, I care about what others think (I am working on that, though). Boundary violaters seem to pick up on that and try to manipulate me further by saying I am selfish, self-centered, un Christ-like (oooo now we are getting serious) not obeying God, since I am not putting others needs ahead of mine....on and on. That is why we need to seek God's will and then STAND FIRM. I need to learn to expect those comments & let them roll off my back. I wonder if the violators really believe that or if they just feel that will cause us to budge...

I find few people really have a healthy concept of boundaries. There's the mother in law who feels entitled to voice her opinion and tries to "help" by basically sticking her nose where it doesn't belong... and when confronted she states "i'm just being a mother" as if her being a mother entitles her to have a say in what choices we make. Those are unhealthy boundaries.

Also, so true! That is why I think this is such an important topic. These unhealthy boundaries are killing our marriages. Even the majority of people in the church don't understand boundaries. Maybe it's because they haven't dealt with habitual intruders...but, this is serious.

Seems most of soiciety still supports and enables unhealthy boundaries... that same co-worker continues his behavior but no one confronts him, though many are offended by him, not even the magager who states "oh he's set in his ways" though that same manager would ring someone else for the same behavior.

That's the phrase I hear all the time. What that is really saying is, "We don't really want to deal with him, he doesn't need to take responsibility for his actions...we will just pay the price for his sin." How is THAT healthy? The person who is left alone because they are "set in their ways" has just taught others it isn't worth it to confront them. They either get angry, show other passive-agressive behavior, or pout. They have mastered the art of manipulation.

My grandmother causes so much turmoil in our lives... she slanders people... expects everyone to stop what they are doing to do things for her, but makes it clear that she won't inconvience herself to do things for you.... and when a few people have stood up to her she pouts and has a fit... and who ends up apologizing? They do. And when someone like myself comes along and says "oh no, that's not going to happen, you're not going to treat me or my family that way" I'm called "new aged" because I'm standing up for myself and my family.

This is something I really want to talk about...New Age. I think the New Age beliefs have crept into our churches so slowly, people are now confusing the beliefs of the New Age movement for the teachings in the Bible. New Age beliefs include the focus on everyone loving everyone....acceptance (sin and all)....not rebuking others (that would be judgmental). That all sounds good, but how is sin dealt with? No one is responsible for their sin. I could go on and on about this...but, this verse jumped out a me a few months ago:

Matthew 10:34-38

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

You might let someone treat you badly in the name of love, but in my opinion that is not love, you are not doing that person any favors. So in essence my way is love as well....

And that is the other thing I hear all the time....misuse of the word "love". And your way truly is love...not just in essence. Love is doing what is in the other's best interest. They might not want to be *loved* that way...but, that IS loving--pushing through even when it gets difficult.
HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I'm glad you all know what i'm talking about.

Yeah, when it comes to my grandma in particular, or even that old friend who offended me almost everyday without remorse.... I got told "you just need to accept, you just need to love, you just need to forgive"...... so, what about holding people accountable??? So you are saying that we should ignore sin? That we should just make excuses for that person? That person continues to offend because no one deals with it..... if you don't feel a challenge or discomfort or I should say consequences when you do something, why change? My grandma will continue to have pity fits when she doesn't get her way as long as others give in and apologize to her. What would happen if everyone just treated it like a temper tantrum and ignored it like you would with say a 3 year old? Because when you pay attention to it they get what they want. They get you to feel guilty for the inconveniance you have caused them, regardless of how it effects you life. They get guilt, and don't have to take a serious look at their own behaviors. If everytime a 3 year old had a temper tantrum because you took a lollipop away and then you felt bad and gave it back to them and made a lot of effort to make them feel better, then you just rewarded their negative behavior... How will they ever learn to accept the words "no"..... and some of us might know that the longer you give into a spoiled acting child, the stronger the tantrum will be when you try to stand your ground against their ways...... becuase they don't know you mean business. It takes some people a long time to really really get that they cannot treat you a certain way and expect positive results. They'll say "you don't love me" "what does the bible say? aren't you a christian" "You're being selfish!" but you notice what they are NOT saying....

They are not saying "i'm truly sorry for treating you that way, you have a right to be treated better then that and I won't do it again"... but yet they are accusing you of being selfish? People need to open up their eyes and see what is really going on.



The lord gave me a visual a long time ago of letting something roll off my back... i pictured a black duck sitting in a pond, with water being poured on him and the drops just running off, not really absorbing into his feathers and making him wet... isnt' there some saying that goes along with that?

HB

 

[mkgal1]

I'm glad you all know what i'm talking about.

They are not saying "i'm truly sorry for treating you that way, you have a right to be treated better then that and I won't do it again"... but yet they are accusing you of being selfish? People need to open up their eyes and see what is really going on.



The lord gave me a visual a long time ago of letting something roll off my back... i pictured a black duck sitting in a pond, with water being poured on him and the drops just running off, not really absorbing into his feathers and making him wet... isnt' there some saying that goes along with that?

HB

I am so glad YOU understand as well. As you can probably guess, I have been wrestling with this for years!! Over and over again, different counselors would tell me to "Take the high road" "Shine the light of Jesus" on and on. I am not talking about things like someone taking my favorite pen at work...the things I have been up against are ruining my marriage & family.

Anyway....whew...that felt good to release that!

When people aren't taking responsibility for their actions, and instead..project it back onto the offended one..that kind of leaves things at a stand still. Nothing can move forward until that person humbles themself and sees the wrong they have committed.

Thanks for the visual of the duck. I am not sure of a saying that goes along with that. Does anyone else know?

 

[mkgal1]

There has already been several verses cited in this thread, as well as Scriptural references. The best biblical support is looking at how Christ lived His life here on this earth. He used boundaries to allow Him to stay true to God's plan and to keep others from controlling His time. You see that more in His last year of His life.

Exactly what problem do you have with boundaries? If you disagree with the idea of setting boundaries...how would you resolve the conflicts that have been mentioned in this thread? Just to not confuse things, let's only use one example. Let's use the husband/wife problem with punctuality. If you were the husband, how would you resovle this? Let's say you have already sat down and calmly explained to your wife how you have a need to be in your seat before church begins. She listened to you and even understands your need...but, she still can't seem to make it out the door on time. You can feel the resentment building every Sunday morning...now, what do YOU do?

I wanted to bump this forward. Curious....how would YOU handle this?

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to post about the animal examples you've given.... I really don't know where my husband and I fit because I can see characteristics of us in all those animals. I want to say I'm a mix between a lion and a retriever...

My husband? He's more a retreiver, but he has characteristics of all those animals, including a lion.. i'll have to take another look at it.

HB

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I have read all your posts in this thread and some posts of yours in other threads. But, oh my goodness no, I have not read all of your posts overall and if I said something like that, it was intended to be entirely limited to your posts in this thread. No offense, but I have a life. Why would I undertake to read your over 2000 posts? I agree, which is why I most often try to discuss the generalities of the topics rather than the specific facts at issue in the OP. No, none at all in this area at least. Well, I am not being defensive--and I don’t think you are even saying that I am, although I am confused by these statements and whether you are trying to apply them to me—for the simple reason that I have not engaged in any behavior and so have nothing to defend. All I have shared is my opinion and whether it is 100% correct—which it of course is —or just 99.99% correct, I would not and could not be defensive because it is still just opinion and not behavior and conduct.

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying here if this is intended to be responsive to anything that I or others on here have said. In addition, can you please clarify especially this:
Are you saying that boundaries as being discussed in this thread have direct biblical support? If so, what is it?

Do you guys remember that movie "white men can't jump" with woody harrelson and was it wesly snipes?
Anyways, the wesly snipes character put in some music that the woody harrelson character apparently didn't like... and a longer story short.... the wesly snipes character replies to woody "you're listening, but you're not HEARING" (or it's the other way around "you're hearing, but you're not listening)

My husband states quite often "I understand what you are saying... BUT...." and then he makes a statement that communicates loud and clear that my point just blew right over his head.... he heard me, but he really was not listening. Just becuase someone says they understand, does not mean they actually understand... and you can't really understand someone unless you are truly listening.

I said all that to say that you said you've read all my comments in this thread (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to... sometimes I just breeze through some if they are too lengthy.. unless i'm really interested) but yet you're not getting it. I don't feel like you've really been "listening". Does that make sense?

HB

 

[Yitzchak]

I said all that to say that you said you've read all my comments in this thread (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to... sometimes I just breeze through some if they are too lengthy.. unless i'm really interested) but yet you're not getting it. I don't feel like you've really been "listening". Does that make sense?

HB

I makes sense to me. I am feeling the same way about my posts not being listened to by the same poster. I almost posted the same thing asking if they had even read the whole thread. But decided not to bother because it seemed like one of those catch 22 situations. If someone really wants to argue and isn't listening then engaging them in furthur discussion only leads to more of the same pattern.

Sorry if this is blunt. But honest observation here. there is such a thing as disagreeing in a way that makes sense versus disagreeing as if the person has not even heard what you said.

It is like if my wife asked me if I wanted to go see a movie tonight... if I said " no, I am really not in the mood for a movie . " that would make sense even though it wasn't the answer she wanted. But if I said something like " I wish we could do something tonight , I don't feel like sitting at home." Her response would probably be did you hear what I asked ?

 

[hisbloodformysins]

It is like if my wife asked me if I wanted to go see a movie tonight... if I said " no, I am really not in the mood for a movie . " that would make sense even though it wasn't the answer she wanted. But if I said something like " I wish we could do something tonight , I don't feel like sitting at home." Her response would probably be did you hear what I asked ?

Interactions with my husband and I are often like this example. It is so frustrating! And my husband will swear up and down that I didn't say something I said... and I say "honey, just because you didn't hear me doesn't mean I didn't say it"

 

[CuriousInIL]

There has already been several verses cited in this thread, as well as Scriptural references. The best biblical support is looking at how Christ lived His life here on this earth. He used boundaries to allow Him to stay true to God's plan and to keep others from controlling His time. You see that more in His last year of His life.

I think that maybe overall, especially the posts above that equate boundaries and free will, are confusing me. As described earlier in this thread, I guess “boundaries” sound a lot to me like ultimatums or threats, rather than just an exercise of free will. As such, the support offered doesn’t, to me, support what I see as a “boundary” but certainly I have no issue with free will being supported.

Exactly what problem do you have with boundaries? If you disagree with the idea of setting boundaries...how would you resolve the conflicts that have been mentioned in this thread? Just to not confuse things, let's only use one example. Let's use the husband/wife problem with punctuality. If you were the husband, how would you resovle this? Let's say you have already sat down and calmly explained to your wife how you have a need to be in your seat before church begins. She listened to you and even understands your need...but, she still can't seem to make it out the door on time. You can feel the resentment building every Sunday morning...now, what do YOU do?

Curious....I would still love to hear your resolution for this conflict.....

Yes curious, i am interested to... seriously, do tell

Well, not to duck the issue too much, but I do not think that I am a great example in this case for 2 reasons—I am not necessarily a reasonable person about that topic and because IRL DW and I often do not go to the same mass and even if we do, we go separately as she almost always has something to do before or after that I do not need to or want to be there for. However, I will try to be honest about what I would do and then also try to be honest about what a reasonable person in that situation should do. And, I must also say that, in both instances, it matters a great deal whether the DW has her own means of transport or not.

With that preamble, if she has her own car, I would leave and she would drive herself. If she has no other way to church, I would go out to the car when it is time to leave and sit in the car waiting for her and we would likely not discuss it further—yes, I would be upset and frustrated, but oh well.

I think that a “reasonable person” would do what I would do in the 2 car situation and that a “reasonable” person in the one car situation would likely call out “Leaving in 5 minutes” about 10 minutes in advance, call “Leaving in 2 minutes” about 5 minutes in advance, call “Leaving now” about 2 minutes in advance and then call “Last chance” at the time to leave and then would leave.

Thoughts?

So then, are you saying you aren't really interested in understanding Boundaries...just really wishing to *challenge* what Yitzchak has said?
In previous posts, Yitzchak has really given enough explanation as to why living without boundaries is not biblical. I would suggest that if you truly want the answer to that...take your time and read through the previous posts. Yitzchak has done an excellent job in his explanations.

I read all the posts and I am thoroughly confused as noted above because to me there has been a sea change from describing ultimatums and threats to saying it is all just free will. And, I am not trying to challenge anything.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion I guess... i'm glad you post curious, makes it interesting.

I hope so; that is really why I post.

I have an observation. It seems to me that those who object strongly to setting boundaries are those who violate boundaries... People who have been victimized by people not respecting their boundaries seem to welcome boundaries but people who are the violaters kind of like it the way it is....That is one reason why it is important for a person to set boundaries without waiting for the agreement of the person who is violating their boundaries....

If this is intended to refer to me, I don’t think it fits at all. However, I must say that it is hard to respond at all because of my confusion.

I don’t object to exercise of free will and, of course, if DW (or anyone else) is doing something I do not like I can do or not do or say something in response.

Please try again, especially with quotes form some of the earliest posts on this thread, to explain how this isn’t ultimatums or threats—if you care to and have the energy.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Do you guys remember that movie "white men can't jump" with woody harrelson and was it wesly snipes?
Anyways, the wesly snipes character put in some music that the woody harrelson character apparently didn't like... and a longer story short.... the wesly snipes character replies to woody "you're listening, but you're not HEARING" (or it's the other way around "you're hearing, but you're not listening)

My husband states quite often "I understand what you are saying... BUT...." and then he makes a statement that communicates loud and clear that my point just blew right over his head.... he heard me, but he really was not listening. Just becuase someone says they understand, does not mean they actually understand... and you can't really understand someone unless you are truly listening.

I said all that to say that you said you've read all my comments in this thread (and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to... sometimes I just breeze through some if they are too lengthy.. unless i'm really interested) but yet you're not getting it. I don't feel like you've really been "listening". Does that make sense?

HB

Makes perfect sense and I was actually thinking of that same movie but I assume I have you and I in different roles.

I makes sense to me. I am feeling the same way about my posts not being listened to by the same poster. I almost posted the same thing asking if they had even read the whole thread. But decided not to bother because it seemed like one of those catch 22 situations. If someone really wants to argue and isn't listening then engaging them in furthur discussion only leads to more of the same pattern.

Sorry if this is blunt. But honest observation here. there is such a thing as disagreeing in a way that makes sense versus disagreeing as if the person has not even heard what you said.

It is like if my wife asked me if I wanted to go see a movie tonight... if I said " no, I am really not in the mood for a movie . " that would make sense even though it wasn't the answer she wanted. But if I said something like " I wish we could do something tonight , I don't feel like sitting at home." Her response would probably be did you hear what I asked ?

I am trying to listen, I did read all the posts, and as I said in my last long post, I percieve a sea change in what is being disucussed.

Interactions with my husband and I are often like this example. It is so frustrating! And my husband will swear up and down that I didn't say something I said... and I say "honey, just because you didn't hear me doesn't mean I didn't say it"

Oh no, if I don't hear it it wan't said.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Also, when I have time--which probably will not be until tomorrow at the earliest, I will go back and reread. One thing that may be hindering my understanding is that a similar topic is also being posted about at TMB and I may be responding in a way that also includes comments made there that you all over here have not obviously necessarily seen.

 

[Yitzchak]

If this is intended to refer to me, I don’t think it fits at all. However, I must say that it is hard to respond at all because of my confusion.

I don’t object to exercise of free will and, of course, if DW (or anyone else) is doing something I do not like I can do or not do or say something in response.

Please try again, especially with quotes form some of the earliest posts on this thread, to explain how this isn’t ultimatums or threats—if you care to and have the energy.

Actually , I had more in mind hisbloodformysin's husband and some people from my life.....

To make it clear... if I say for example.... O.k. no violence allowed in this house , can we all agree upon that and one of the family members responds who says you get to set the rules.... we can hit if we want to...Point is reasonable people don't want to hit each other or be attacked physically... So why the objection to such a reasonable thing to accept ?

Some of us have had to deal with extreme situations where common sense is lacking....

I think you pointed out that your objection was based upon being making up unreasonable boundaries....That is a whole different side of the issue and worthy of discussion. But not what I was refering to....

 

[Yitzchak]

Please try again, especially with quotes form some of the earliest posts on this thread, to explain how this isn’t ultimatums or threats—if you care to and have the energy.

O.k. Here is my attempt... Let's turn the situation around and imagine instead of the husband being rough and groping her in an insenstive way , it is the wife now.

So she comes up and randomly kicks him in the groin until he sees stars and says " hey baby, this turns me on...now I'm really in the mood after that ... " he refuses sex and says I am willing to make love if you are gentle but if you come up and kick me in the groin , I won't be in the mood , I will be angry.....But she is onto bondage and hurting herself and others and he is not. she might even want to cut each other with knives and say that is like foreplay for her.....

Is that a threat that he is making to withhold lovemaking from his wife or setting a reasonable boundary ?

Now you can come along and say they should discuss it nicely... Ignoring the fact that after repeatedly being kicked int he groin , the guy isn't in the mood to be nice. But let's say he is really sanctified and forgives and calms himself and attempts to discuss it several times only to be surprised at random times by the same action again....

Now it is time for setting a boundary.....

 

[Yitzchak]

The free will comes in with respect to the fact that I choose not to engage in the violent side of sex. Which many do , by the way...

I feel that while I have a duty to be available for love making , I do not have a duty to engage in whatever weird things people include in the catagory of sex....

It could be handcuffs , whips , I don't wan to shock anyone here.. but some people have different expectations and mindsets.

I am allowed to make the final decision about what I feel comfortable with.

 

[Yitzchak]

Now where free will comes in is that many people insist that the wife submit and do whatever the husband wants.

Which is only one example of many ways that people try to bully other people into doing what they want and overriding their free will... One of the key ingredients in a healthy relationship is recognizing that the other person has the right to say no. Suggesting that because I have a responsibility to someone means they have a blank check is silly.

One more example... And then I have to let it rest because I am repeating myself here...

Let's say I agree to shovel my neighbors driveway for the entire season 500 dollars. They give me the money in advance and I spend it so they are expecting me to follow through.

But then every time I go to shovel , they invite all their third cousins over to pelt me with ice and snow balls which leave bruises and really hurts...They figure I am obligated to this treatment since I agreed to shovel.I try discussing it with them but they feel confident because they paid me and I can't back out now....

So I set a boundary... No shoveling until the snowballing stops.... An ultimatum ?? Maybe if you choose to look at it that way. But they set me up for this situation and backed me into a corner..Am I obligated to keep shoveling and take the treatment or do I have options ??

 

[mkgal1]

Good illustration, Yitzchak! Maybe this will take several illustrations to be clear.

Curious, I am glad you are being persistent in asking questions if you truly want to understand. Like I said before, I really think this is important since it really has reached a crisis how people are being told to *take* mistreatment as a way to obey God. Suffering for Christ is different than allowing the consequences that are meant for others to affect us & not them.

I think I understand your confusion about the difference of boundaries vs ultimatums. Ultimatums ARE a form of manipulation. I guess the easiest way to explain the difference between controlling behavior and setting boundaries is the intent. The intent of boundary setting is to draw the dividing line, so to speak, between what belongs to each individual. It is to keep the one person's natural consequences of their decisions from affecting others. They have their choice as to how the are going to act, because that division line is drawn...either way, it isn't going to affect anyone but them--they now can exercise their free will with no hard feelings. This is to build up a relationship, keeping resentment from forming.

Ulitmatums are designed to get someone to make a certain choice....if they don't make the right choice (the one that the ultimatum giver wants) --they are punished. That is controlling--it causes resentment--it causes a wall of anger--it destroys.

Does that help??

 

[CuriousInIL]

Let me say up front that I think these are really clear points here that are helping me to understand. In the end, this may be more a semantic issue with what I have and am hearing. Let me try to respond point by point and see where we go.

Actually , I had more in mind hisbloodformysin's husband and some people from my life.....

To make it clear... if I say for example.... O.k. no violence allowed in this house , can we all agree upon that and one of the family members responds who says you get to set the rules.... we can hit if we want to...Point is reasonable people don't want to hit each other or be attacked physically... So why the objection to such a reasonable thing to accept ?

Some of us have had to deal with extreme situations where common sense is lacking....

I think you pointed out that your objection was based upon being making up unreasonable boundaries....That is a whole different side of the issue and worthy of discussion. But not what I was refering to....

I agree that there are clearly two sides to this reasonable and unreasonable or right/wrong. Yes, we all have to deal with a lack of common sense—too often my own I fear. Not sure there is much else to say on this point. Am I missing anything else here?

O.k. Here is my attempt... Let's turn the situation around and imagine instead of the husband being rough and groping her in an insenstive way , it is the wife now.

So she comes up and randomly kicks him in the groin until he sees stars and says " hey baby, this turns me on...now I'm really in the mood after that ... " he refuses sex and says I am willing to make love if you are gentle but if you come up and kick me in the groin , I won't be in the mood , I will be angry.....But she is onto bondage and hurting herself and others and he is not. she might even want to cut each other with knives and say that is like foreplay for her.....

Is that a threat that he is making to withhold lovemaking from his wife or setting a reasonable boundary ?

Now you can come along and say they should discuss it nicely... Ignoring the fact that after repeatedly being kicked int he groin , the guy isn't in the mood to be nice. But let's say he is really sanctified and forgives and calms himself and attempts to discuss it several times only to be surprised at random times by the same action again....

Now it is time for setting a boundary.....

Ok well here I again see perhaps a split—in some of the hypothetical situations you posited, like repeated kicks to the groin, there is more than a “I don’t feel like it” issue there is a physical impediment. And here is perhaps an important distinction—what I was hearing earlier—whether I was listening or not—or vice versa—is that a “boundary” would be more like I will not agree to lovemaking with you until you agree never to do that (whatever the that is) again rather than I will not agree to lovemaking at this moment because you just did that. Let me try to be clearer and go back to the original situation. Is the “boundary” that DW will not make love with DH unless DH agrees—and shows that agreement with action—that he will not grope ever? Or is the “boundary” that DH just groped so DW is not ready for lovemaking now but perhaps will be in 5 minutes (or 5 days) without regard to any promises for the future? I see a great deal of difference there.

The free will comes in with respect to the fact that I choose not to engage in the violent side of sex. Which many do , by the way...

I feel that while I have a duty to be available for love making , I do not have a duty to engage in whatever weird things people include in the catagory of sex....

It could be handcuffs , whips , I don't wan to shock anyone here.. but some people have different expectations and mindsets.

I am allowed to make the final decision about what I feel comfortable with.

Agreed. But to me that isn’t “boundary” setting. And to me, while you have the free will to engage or not in those activities, that doesn’t answer the question of whether it is right for you to engage or refuse.

Now where free will comes in is that many people insist that the wife submit and do whatever the husband wants.

Which is only one example of many ways that people try to bully other people into doing what they want and overriding their free will... One of the key ingredients in a healthy relationship is recognizing that the other person has the right to say no. Suggesting that because I have a responsibility to someone means they have a blank check is silly.

One more example... And then I have to let it rest because I am repeating myself here...

Let's say I agree to shovel my neighbors driveway for the entire season 500 dollars. They give me the money in advance and I spend it so they are expecting me to follow through.

But then every time I go to shovel , they invite all their third cousins over to pelt me with ice and snow balls which leave bruises and really hurts...They figure I am obligated to this treatment since I agreed to shovel.I try discussing it with them but they feel confident because they paid me and I can't back out now....

So I set a boundary... No shoveling until the snowballing stops.... An ultimatum ?? Maybe if you choose to look at it that way. But they set me up for this situation and backed me into a corner..Am I obligated to keep shoveling and take the treatment or do I have options ??

Well, of course, choosing to submit is itself an act of free will.
Do you have to keep shoveling? No, not in my opinion. However, if you choose to stop, I think you have to return the $500 (or a pro rata share for the undone work). And again, I think there is a difference between saying:
#1 I am keeping the 500 and unless you commit right now to no more snowballs ever again I will not shovel anymore and if one more snowball flies that is the end of it, no refund and no shoveling OR
#2 When I am shoveling if you throw snowball I am going to stop and will not come back until the next snowfall.

There are also probably possibilities 3 4 5 and 6, etc. but I think I made my points.

So, where are we now?

 

[mkgal1]

I am glad you took the time to answer how you would handle the situation of the wife and husband having a difference of values relating to punctuality.

So, it looks as though you see the value in the boundary, right? The main reason is to keep resentment from forming in the relationship. I would add that if there is only one car, I think it would be best to just leave if the wife isn't ready on time. You said you would wait in the car, but that you would be upset & frustrated. That simply isn't good for either of you. I know we have probably all been told things that cause us to see that as mean or unreasonable...but really, it was the wife's decision. Allowing other's actions to cause us to feel resentment towards them puts a barrier between us to were we can't fully love them.

I would leave and she would drive herself. If she has no other way to church, I would go out to the car when it is time to leave and sit in the car waiting for her and we would likely not discuss it further—yes, I would be upset and frustrated, but oh well.

I think that a “reasonable person” would do what I would do in the 2 car situation and that a “reasonable” person in the one car situation would likely call out “Leaving in 5 minutes” about 10 minutes in advance, call “Leaving in 2 minutes” about 5 minutes in advance, call “Leaving now” about 2 minutes in advance and then call “Last chance” at the time to leave and then would leave.