Ok Rad and Marv, you have succeeded in utterly confusing me for the first time. So, a congregation has the right to call anyone they choose to perform the office of Pastor even if that individual isn't on the roster of the LCMS? Then please explain to me why the charter for Redeemer church in Michigan was revoked because they kept Rev. Cassiogne(sp?) as their Pastor? The excuse of the Synodical leadership was that they had called a Pastor that wasn't on the roster and therefore violated their charter with the LCMS.
I understand what you are trying to get across, Rad, it's just that it's inconsistant with the behaviour of the Synod. Or is that the point; that the Synodical behaviour is inconsistant?
Folks, please keep in mind that we're dealing with the LCMS solely here. Not the Lutheran church in general. Therefore, what is done in WELS, whilst helpful, is irrelevent.
I'm not surprised Stude, because on this topic, the LCMS is very confused in general.
First what is the church? The LCMS has general held historically that the congregation and not the synod is the church.
Who extends a call? The church. So it is the congregation which can call a pastor.
What is ordiantion. Ordination is an adiaphoran rite. It is done in recognition of a call, but is not necessary for a valid call to exist. In an ideal world the churches and the ecclesia would be in harmony, but if, as happened with Catholic Bishops in Luther's time, the ecclesia withold ordination, it does not make the call invalid.
Now it gets even more confusing. It has been generally held that the church once the call is extended does not have the right to rescind the call, exept in rather limited circumstance like the pastor is living in open sin.
Is the church free to call anyone. Not quite. First there are the biblical guidelines, the called person should fall within them. Secondly there are earthly restrictions. The churches have voluntarily agreed, as a condition of membership in the LCMS to only call those people for pastor who are rostered by the synod.
This is what gets really dicey. The synods position is since the congregation has agreed to only call rostered people as pastors, if the pastor is removed from the roster, the church must rescind the call. Now in the case where the pastor was removed from the roster as a result of living in sin, there would be no real conflict. But lets say the reason for removal is not apparently sin? You get the synod demanding the church rescind the call for a situation that would generally be taught is not a reason that the church can rescind the call.
Now back to lay ministers. They are not lay ministers. They are ministers. Calling them lay ministers makes them a second class minister. They aren't, they are called by the church as a minister. They are no longer a layperson, they are a minister.
Congregations are not in violation of their agreement in calling a person if the person is a part of the education program for nonseminary route ministers.
I don't know what the real situation is concerning the specific individual. Maybe he's in the synod program, maybe he's not. And I don't think the synod generally approves of calling ministers to unpaid positions. That throws another curve ball too.
So yes, it's all rather confusing because things really don't seem to be consistent. But in any case, I think you've wrapped some things up into the rite of ordination that aren't LCMS positions on ordination. The question really isn't this man ordained but is this man regularly called. If he is regularly called, then he should be recognized through the rite of ordination but if you say he must be ordained, then you have taken the keys away from the church and given them to the ecclesia. Certainly a position of some groups but not of the LCMS.
We could speculate a lot, but I really would suggest you talk to the man and the head pastor about this. Details can be quite important and we are unlikely to get them right through speculation.
Marv
lol!
Not to mention limiting the ability for a seminary education to the wealthy.
