Sermons

[bbbbbbb]

Umbrellas and motorized vehicles are not adopted forms of the church so are irrelevant to this discussion. We don't see them featured as we participate in worship to God and they have little to no emphasis in christian living. These "things" are not values of the church and If they are they are deemphasized and no one inside or outside the church are confused of their role.

I have never heard of a holy umbrella but I have heard of a holy table. The value of the latter within the church and the like are the values I'm addressing.

I note that you fail to include radio, television, movies, the internet, computers, Skype, Facebook, and Twitter among adopted forms of the church. Do you also ignore them?

 

[DamianWarS]

I note that you fail to include radio, television, movies, the internet, computers, Skype, Facebook, and Twitter among adopted forms of the church. Do you also ignore them?

all of those are also not adopted forms of the church. Just look at the former post and replace umbrellas and motorized vehicles with one of those other things. This list of things typical have no religious places in churches. Sure they can be found inside the church but they are only tools and not adopted forms. For example we don't put a computer in a central display, bedazzle it, then call it a Holy Computer. Of course not because something like that would be absurd and counter-gospel. But is it much different than the way we spiritualize many non-biblical values and things within the church? Is it because they are old that they are excluded?

An Altar is an example but it can extend to windows, pulpits, obelisk steeples, chairs, clothing, titles etc... etc. All of these are non-biblical forms and some are de-empahsized where others are hyper-empahsized. My concern is when it blurs the message of the gospel with the practice.

 

[bbbbbbb]

all of those are also not adopted forms of the church. Just look at the former post and replace umbrellas and motorized vehicles with one of those other things. This list of things typical have no religious places in churches. Sure they can be found inside the church but they are only tools and not adopted forms. For example we don't put a computer in a central display, bedazzle it, then call it a Holy Computer. Of course not because something like that would be absurd and counter-gospel. But is it much different than the way we spiritualize many non-biblical values and things within the church? Is it because they are old that they are excluded?

An Altar is an example but it can extend to windows, pulpits, obelisk steeples, chairs, clothing, titles etc... etc. All of these are non-biblical forms and some are de-empahsized where others are hyper-empahsized. My concern is when it blurs the message of the gospel with the practice.

You do have your own, narrow definition as to what blurs the message of the gospel. I will no longer attempt to discuss this with you as it is obvious to me that you are happily riding this hobby horse, which is not mine.

 

[Job8]

Why is a sermon considered worship? Don't mean to sound rude here I just have a hard time understanding this...

You've brought up a very good point. Worship ("praising God") is adoration, praise, and thanksgiving to God and should accompany "the breaking of bread" (the Lord's Supper), whereas preaching and teaching pertain to "the apostle's doctrine" (and sermonizing is not even included) (Acts 2:42, 47). And speaking of "real presence", Christ is really present when believers gather to worship "in spirit and in truth".

Why is there confusion? Because (a) Christians are generally not taught about the Royal Priesthood of Believers [and what that entails] and (b) Christians are generally not taught the meaning of worship.

 

[Tangible]

What I find lacking in both most Protestant and most liturgical churches is the absence of engagement by the laity. To be sure, there is a level of engagement by the laity, but in most cases it comes down to a spectator experience. One can listen to a lengthy sermon and be entertained by the worship team in a contemporary church or one can watch all the fancy-dancy liturgy be performed at the altar by a priest, but in both cases one is rare engaged. For the Counter Reformation, the Catholic Church supplied impressive church buildings which do tend to help distract the laymen from what is otherwise a standard liturgy which varies little from week to week.

I am happy in my Plymouth Brethren chapel which, IMO, has the best of both worlds - a wholly eucharistic service followed, after a break, but a wholly exegetical service of teaching of the Word. I don't know why it must be an either-or situation for so many churches.

I wouldn't characterize our LCMS liturgy as "fancy-dancy". There are times when the celebrant is faced away from the congregation when he is interceding on behalf of the church, but there are other times when he is speaking directly to the congregation and the congregation responds in unison. I find it to be very interactive, though not necessarily entertaining. That's not why we are there.

I think you would be favorably impressed by a standard LCMS Divine Service right out of the Service Book. It's saturated with Scripture. Our worship also follows the W principle, that is, our worship is symbolically W-shaped. God gives us his gifts and blessings through his Word, we respond with thankful praise, God gives us his gifts and blessings through the Sacrament, and we respond with thankful praise. God reaches down, we reach up, God reaches down, we reach up. Thus W-shaped.

 

[Job8]

What I find lacking in both most Protestant and most liturgical churches is the absence of engagement by the laity.

Exactly. Worship is corporate, and the entire body of believers must be involved. Ever since the man-made distinction between clergy and laity was set up (in imitation of the Levitical priesthood), the Bible doctrine pertaining to the Royal Priesthood of all believers was neglected or denied.

 

[Meowzltov]

Why is it that, mostly in Southern Baptist circles and similar groups, a sermon is the central point of "worship?" It seems to me that a sermon should definitely be in the service, even a major part of it, but not all of it. My experience at most of these types church's is as follows: a few songs/hymns sung at the beginning followed by the sermon and maybe a follow-up song to end the service.

Why is a sermon considered worship? Don't mean to sound rude here I just have a hard time understanding this...

I know that when I am trying to take notes and soak in the sermon, my mind goes off of God and onto focusing.

It beats me.

In my church, we have the opening, which is the gathering song, the Gloria, the common Confession, etc. Then we enter into the Liturgy of the Word, where three different scriptures are read, and we have a 10 minute or so homily on the readings. We then recite the Nicene Creed, have prayers, and the offering. After that comes the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which lasts about a half hour. If you don't know what that is, its all the songs and prayers surrounding having communion. We end with a Recessional song.

When I now occasionally visit a Protestant church with say a boyfriend or something, and they start with the Praise music, and it lifts me up. Then they have prayers, and it brings me closer to God. Then they read from the Word and have the best sermon, and i'm like, i am so so so ready for his body and blood!!!!! And just when I'm ready... they all go home.

 

[Leevo]

It beats me.

In my church, we have the opening, which is the gathering song, the Gloria, the common Confession, etc. Then we enter into the Liturgy of the Word, where three different scriptures are read, and we have a 10 minute or so homily on the readings. We then recite the Nicene Creed, have prayers, and the offering. After that comes the Liturgy of the Eucharist, which lasts about a half hour. If you don't know what that is, its all the songs and prayers surrounding having communion. We end with a Recessional song.

When I now occasionally visit a Protestant church with say a boyfriend or something, and they start with the Praise music, and it lifts me up. Then they have prayers, and it brings me closer to God. Then they read from the Word and have the best sermon, and i'm like, i am so so so ready for his body and blood!!!!! And just when I'm ready... they all go home.

Mass always seemed more like a form of worship to me.

I know the feeling about being ready for the Eucharist. Sometimes I have been at my old church, and when the preacher delivered a great sermon, I was like, there is no way they don't have Holy Communion today, but alas, they did not haha!