Seriously, I don't get it!

[Velcro]

I fear bringing this to the forum, because I have tried in the past, and it has led to posts I would really rather not read and bitter squabbling that was utterly ridiculous. But here I am in this forum, because it looks like it could be safer.

Here's the case: I was reared in a a type of Arminianism. During my latter years there, the people in that church were more convincing of the truth of Calvinism than was any book or teacher I had run into. However, while I learned a more biblical understanding of sin, grace, and the sovereignty of G-d, I still do not understand the OSAS doctrine. In fact, when I read the Bible, I still see equal numbers of Scriptures that would prove the one idea as would prove the other.

Without getting into a brawl with Arminians, can you show me Scriptural proof of OSAS that cannot be disputed? And if I cannot see it as you do, and debate lightly, in order to understand, can you resist anger, understanding that I am just trying to learn?

By the way, write to me simply, as though to a child. I have read the same Scriptures you did and saw them differently than you did, for over 50 years. Reading the Scriptures through presuppositions and prejudices can really change them in the reader's mind, as I am sure you understand.

 

[erin74]

This isn't with exact scriptural reference, as it sounds as though you already have looked at those, but a way of thinking that I found helpful. I am not completely married to the idea, but happy with it at this stage.

Basically consider a sign on a cliff that says danger - there's a cliff here. The sign is true - there is a dangerous cliff. However, God will not let us fall off that cliff.

So the warnings are true in that they are warnings, and are necessary when we need to be warned. The promises are also true - we cannot fall away.

Hope this helps

erin

 

[AndOne]

Good morning Velcro - and welcome to the Reformanda forums!

To start with let me just point out that I will not debate on this topic here - since this is where I come to get away from such debates. I will however give you a couple of proof texts in regards to the security of the believer and leave it at that. If you want to debate - start a thread in the SOTERIOLOGY forum and we can go head-to-head there.

Here are your proof texts:

"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls." (1 Peter 1:3-9 NKJV)

and

10"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. 12"What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish." (Matthew 18:10-14 NKJV)

There are countless more - but these are two strong ones. I have no doubt that you will want to try to refute the points of these passages - which is fine but I won't argue the points here.

God Bless...

Dave

 

[Velcro]

Thank you, both of you. i really appreciate your answers, and I need to stop and let them soak in, reading them in context in the Bible, mulling them over.

However, before doing that, any debate I intended would be something like, "But the Arminians see this Scripture as '. . . .' How would you answer that?" It would not be open debate.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Howdy, Velcro!

I suppose you could say I was in the Arminian/Semi-Pelagian camp for twenty years or so. I didn't change overnight. It took years of contemplating God's grace, and then about two years of serious study of the Reformed position to come to believe that it really is the best model of man's state and salvation.

You're absolutely correct that "Reading the Scriptures through presuppositions and prejudices can really change them in the reader's mind". The presuppostion that underlies our view of eternal security is whether the ultimate choice in determing our salvation is ours or God's.

If you see Scripture as saying that God has done everything He can to save us, but we still need to reach out and accept it (our accepting it being the key to whether we receive it or not), then it makes absolute sense that what we have freely accepted we can also freely return. You will then interpret whatever Scriptures you read on the topic through that lens. This is the position I held for over twenty years.

If you hold the position that man's natural state is to totaly reject God and that man will not turn to God unless God first regenerates a man's heart, then we see that the source of our salvation in in God's actions, not ours, and our security is based totally upon what God has done.

IMHO, the most inconsistant view in Christendom is that it's our free acceptance of God's gift that saves us, but then that choice is irreversible. It seems to me that this is the most prevalent view in American Christianity today. That view of OSAS is logically inconsistent and totally untenable from any point of view as far as I can see, and I have always believed this.

The way I see it, the converstaion usually starts at the wrong points...either "Can salvation be lost?" or "Is salvation my choice or God's?" I think to answer these questions, we first need to step back and examine our underlying views on the effect of the Fall upon man and man's will. So...just what happened to man and our will in the Fall?

If I could recommend another book, RC Sproul's Chosen By God spells this all out very nicely in simple laymen's terms.

 

[Velcro]

Thank you for your advice and for letting me know that you understand where I am coming from. I have had others recommend Sproul to me, but I have avoided reading him, trying to find the answers in the Bible only. However, I still find myself needing guidance. I think I will try Sproul.

With regard to the Fall and the resulting human circumstance, I only recently understood that we are born in sin, and not by the usual Scriptures given (which, for me, did not tell me that), so i have not gone any further than simply an acceptance that it is true.

My synagogue is definitely Calvinistic, and the teachers are all Calvinists, as are most of the people who attend there that I know about. However, there are a couple of us, coming from backgrounds similar to mine, who are learning and occasionally struggling. I would ask about this there, but I am so far behind, in the dust, that I admit I get embarrassed and stop asking.

 

[cygnusx1]

This isn't with exact scriptural reference, as it sounds as though you already have looked at those, but a way of thinking that I found helpful. I am not completely married to the idea, but happy with it at this stage.

Basically consider a sign on a cliff that says danger - there's a cliff here. The sign is true - there is a dangerous cliff. However, God will not let us fall off that cliff.

So the warnings are true in that they are warnings, and are necessary when we need to be warned. The promises are also true - we cannot fall away.

Hope this helps

erin

You know that you have desribed the case wonderfully , you have in a few words shown both the Promises and the warnings of God , I think this is a great POST , it is so simple and yet so deep all at the same time . Thankyou Sister

 

[Irishcat922]

This may sound like pure semantics but I think the issue is with the term OSAS or similarly Eternal Security, as if the person who can point to specific point in their history where they made a decision to follow Christ and therefore they can never lose that experience. I think most of what is taught today in the Church is highly subjective and Arminian. On the other hand the reformed view of "the perseverence of the saints" is biblical and objective. It is based rather on what God has done in our lives and what He will continue to do until he brings us home.

Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[erin74]

Just another thought. I think that one of the problems when we consider this issue is that we are thinking of it in light of other people all the time. Can 'a person' fall away. Instead I think we need to consider two people/groups of people first. Firstly the people that it was originally written to. Why did they need the message. Secondly - do we need the message. If you read a warning in Hebrews and it stops you from straying it has done it's job - brought you back to where you need to be. If you read a passage of assurance, that you cannot fall away, and you are reassured, then it has done it's job of reassuring you of your salvation.

Remember, these passages aren't here to create a principle, they are there to guide the people who they were originally written to, and in turn us. The reason they were written were because of what those people needed to hear, and what we need to hear. I think it is important to understand the bible, obviously, but more important is to see the bible passages for what they are, and be open to be changed by them.

I hope this is somewhat coherent. I am happy to not always fully get how it all works together, but simply have the 'cliff top' understanding that I have. What I do know is that if I need those assurances, and guidance, that I am very thankful for them both. Or if I need to assure or guide someone else I have somewhere to point them. I just pray that I never have a need for either of them.

erin

 

[Velcro]

Well, just to give a short idea of where I am coming from, perhaps it would be best if I said a little about the background. The branch of Arminianism I had been in teaches that Christians do not sin, period. People there looked us in the face and said, in all seriousness, that they had not sinned in 10, 25, 50, 60 years, and they seemed to believe that. However, when I read my Bible, where it said that gossip was sin as was all theft (even taking a paper clip, bank pen, an extra penny from the cashier), unbelief, incorrect response, etc., I knew I was a sinner. When I would repent and repent, I would be derided, shamed, for "starting over."

It was a site like this one on which people were able to give me Scriptures that helped me to gain an understanding of sin in the believer's life and how to face and handle it. That is why I came to this area -- with the thought in mind that perhaps I could glean some understand of this subject as well.

So the idea of people/people-groups has been brought up. That is good for me -- maybe it could be my baby-step to understanding by bringing up people-circumstances.

Person A appears to believe and accept the L-rd. A does all the right things, is repentant of the wrong, and dies 20 years later, having apparently maintained that condition.

• Should I assume A was saved?
• Do we not know?
• When do we know?

Person B appears to believe and accept the L-rd. B does all the right things, is repentant of the wrong, and 19 years later, B claims that s/he is suddenly an atheist. B dies a year later, having apparently maintained the latter condition.

• Should I assume B was still saved because of B's initial actions?
• Should I assume B was never saved?
• Should I assume B had been saved but erred and died unsaved?
• Do we not know?

Person C never claimed to believe and accept the L-rd. C still does all the right things, is repentant of the wrong, and 20 years later, C dies.

• Should I assume C was still saved because of C's upright life, in spite of never accepting the L-rd?
• Should I assume C was never saved?
• Do we not know?

Just for the sake of my understanding, pretend that you have personal knowledge of A, B, and C, and don't go philosophical on me! Please try not to bring up peripheral circumstances and possibilities. I'm doing baby-steps here!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

IMHO...

Person A: I'd assume A is saved.

Person B: I'd assume B was never saved. Among other verses that would support this conclusion is 1 John 2:19...They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Person C: I'd have to assume C was probably not saved because our salvation is not based upon living according to the law but on our realizing we are each sinners in the eyes of a holy G_d and falling upon His mercy. I wouldn't say this example is totally cut and dried, because we still don't know what happened between C and G_d in C's final days or moments and it's possible C came to a saving knowledge.

To be honest, C describes my Dad, who lived a good life but wanted absolutely nothing to do with G_d up to the day he died. He committed suicide. I have to assume I won't be seeing him in heaven.

 

[Velcro]

Oh, Dwarf! I am so sorry. I am sorry!

 

[Jon_]

Well, just to give a short idea of where I am coming from, perhaps it would be best if I said a little about the background. The branch of Arminianism I had been in teaches that Christians do not sin, period. People there looked us in the face and said, in all seriousness, that they had not sinned in 10, 25, 50, 60 years, and they seemed to believe that. However, when I read my Bible, where it said that gossip was sin as was all theft (even taking a paper clip, bank pen, an extra penny from the cashier), unbelief, incorrect response, etc., I knew I was a sinner. When I would repent and repent, I would be derided, shamed, for "starting over."

It was a site like this one on which people were able to give me Scriptures that helped me to gain an understanding of sin in the believer's life and how to face and handle it. That is why I came to this area -- with the thought in mind that perhaps I could glean some understand of this subject as well.

So the idea of people/people-groups has been brought up. That is good for me -- maybe it could be my baby-step to understanding by bringing up people-circumstances.

Person A appears to believe and accept the L-rd. A does all the right things, is repentant of the wrong, and dies 20 years later, having apparently maintained that condition.

• Should I assume A was saved?
• Do we not know?
• When do we know?

Person B appears to believe and accept the L-rd. B does all the right things, is repentant of the wrong, and 19 years later, B claims that s/he is suddenly an atheist. B dies a year later, having apparently maintained the latter condition.

• Should I assume B was still saved because of B's initial actions?
• Should I assume B was never saved?
• Should I assume B had been saved but erred and died unsaved?
• Do we not know?

Person C never claimed to believe and accept the L-rd. C still does all the right things, is repentant of the wrong, and 20 years later, C dies.

• Should I assume C was still saved because of C's upright life, in spite of never accepting the L-rd?
• Should I assume C was never saved?
• Do we not know?

Just for the sake of my understanding, pretend that you have personal knowledge of A, B, and C, and don't go philosophical on me! Please try not to bring up peripheral circumstances and possibilities. I'm doing baby-steps here!

A: Yes
B: Yes
C: No

For the record, B was me all throughout my school years. But even in my rebellion, I had no doubt that if there was a God (I proclaimed to be Atheistic at the time) that I would be going to heaven because I accepted Jesus (I was also an Arminian at the time, though I knew better than to believe that God would forsake me).

 

[Dmckay]

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

***29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

***30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

***31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

***32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

***33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

***34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

***35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

***36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

***37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

***38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

***39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Above is KJV

This is the same in the NASV

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

***29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

***30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

***31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

***32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

***33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

***34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

*** 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

***36Just as it is written,
*********"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
*********WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

***37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

***38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Elderone]

Velcro

God tells us He is Truth.

If you believe the Bible is, not contains, the written Word of God, it must be Truth.

If the Bible is Truth it will not say one thing in one place and have a contradictory statement in another.

Here are a few passages in which God tells us about everlasting life.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Joh 4:14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."

Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Joh 6:27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

Joh 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Joh 6:47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

If any passage(s) seems to contradict these it is because we don't understand it, or them, correctly and need to study further.

God does not give salvation and then take it away.

I hope this is of some help.

 

[Velcro]

You are all helping; I am just slow to understand. I am working on it, though. Mainly, I am copying down Scripture. Thank you.

 

[Velcro]

I have gotten in trouble on another thread and received a warning. To keep from causing trouble, I guess we should stop discussing this.

Thank you anyway, all of you.

 

[Elderone]

I have gotten in trouble on another thread and received a warning. To keep from causing trouble, I guess we should stop discussing this.

Thank you anyway, all of you.

I may be dense but fail to see any problem with your question, however, if there is one, take it to "Ask A Calvinist".

One thing I forgot to mention. Before reading or studying the Bible, pray and ask God for understanding and wisdom.

 

[oworm]

I have gotten in trouble on another thread and received a warning. To keep from causing trouble, I guess we should stop discussing this.

Thank you anyway, all of you.

You havent broken ANY forum rules as far as i can discern. If you had our own Gabriel would soon let you know! Keep on asking and posting. No one here is offended by your words

 

[mesue]

I fear bringing this to the forum, because I have tried in the past, and it has led to posts I would really rather not read and bitter squabbling that was utterly ridiculous. But here I am in this forum, because it looks like it could be safer.

Here's the case: I was reared in a a type of Arminianism. During my latter years there, the people in that church were more convincing of the truth of Calvinism than was any book or teacher I had run into. However, while I learned a more biblical understanding of sin, grace, and the sovereignty of G-d, I still do not understand the OSAS doctrine. In fact, when I read the Bible, I still see equal numbers of Scriptures that would prove the one idea as would prove the other.

Without getting into a brawl with Arminians, can you show me Scriptural proof of OSAS that cannot be disputed? And if I cannot see it as you do, and debate lightly, in order to understand, can you resist anger, understanding that I am just trying to learn?

By the way, write to me simply, as though to a child. I have read the same Scriptures you did and saw them differently than you did, for over 50 years. Reading the Scriptures through presuppositions and prejudices can really change them in the reader's mind, as I am sure you understand.

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist because I don't understand what they mean. I don't try to bother understanding because they were men and not God. They may make valid points in whatever they pointed out, and maybe someday I'll actually study them, but I love to study God's word, and for now that is enough. The following is an email I sent to my friend because she said you can lose your salvation because there is a "sin unto death" . This is true, there is sin unto physical death (I.E. Fornication can lead to STDs. drinking to Cirrosis of the liver etc.) and for the unsaved, spiritual death as well. But once save, always saved. It doesn't matter who you are or what you wrote. The bottom line is: What does God have to say about it?


Some things for you to consider and to know why I know that I will never lose my salvation.

Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

(note Jesus didn’t say “Except for that sin unto death”)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

(note Jesus didn’t say “Except for that sin unto death”)

Further, that I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:

Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)

Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

(2 Timothy 1:12)

Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

(Galatians 2:21)

God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation

For I am persuaded, that neither

death, - you cannot lose it when you die

nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive

nor angels, - cannot take it away from you

nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.

nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.

nor things present, - nothing happening right now

nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.

Nor height, - nothing above you.

nor depth, - nothing below you.

nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)

Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)

But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)