Seriously Folks

[Iacchus32]

You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke!

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes!

 

[The Bellman]

You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you? -- that we sure take ourselves a bit too seriously! And then you want to pin me down, in all seriousness, and claim that I'm irrational. And yet what right do you have to claim anything is irrational, if there is no meaning to begin with? What a joke!

So, does meaning exist in the absolute sense? Yes!

I've no idea what this even means. What does "a world that has true meaning" mean? What does it mean to say that "there is no meaning to begin with"? Can you clarify?

 

[Iacchus32]

I've no idea what this even means. What does "a world that has true meaning" mean? What does it mean to say that "there is no meaning to begin with"? Can you clarify?

This is a notion most Atheists tend to adhere to, based upon the notion that there was nothing before the Big Bang, thus making it possible to eliminate the need for a Creator who, instills the Universe with an ultimate purpose. In other words there can be no true meaning (other than what we make of it, if that means anything?) because we are strictly here by chance.

 

[ThinkerThinker]

... thus making it possible to eliminate the need for a Creator who, instills the Universe with an ultimate purpose.

You are just pushing the argument back. If our meaning lies in God then what is the meaning of God's existence? If he is his own meaning why can we not be our own meaning? If he gives meaning to us and we to him why can't we do the same with each other without the need for a god to exist? You can as easily say God does not require a meaning because he just is, as saying the universe requires no meaning because it just is. What is this ultimate purpose anyway? Is it to love God? If so what is the purpose? Becaue he wants it? Why? You can go on and on and in the end you will not even find ultimate meaning in God.

 

[Iacchus32]

You are just pushing the argument back. If our meaning lies in God then what is the meaning of God's existence? If he is his own meaning why can we not be our own meaning? If he gives meaning to us and we to him why can't we do the same with each other without the need for a god to exist? You can as easily say God does not require a meaning because he just is, as saying the universe requires no meaning because it just is. What is this ultimate purpose anyway? Is it to love God? If so what is the purpose? Becaue he wants it? Why? You can go on and on and in the end you will not even find ultimate meaning in God.

Yes, God expresses His purpose through His creation. A creation based upon the absoluteness of His being.

 

[The Bellman]

This is a notion most Atheists tend to adhere to, based upon the notion that there was nothing before the Big Bang, thus making it possible to eliminate the need for a Creator who, instills the Universe with an ultimate purpose. In other words there can be no true meaning (other than what we make of it, if that means anything?) because we are strictly here by chance.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, there is no "true meaning" - to anything. All meaning we see or perceive is that which we create.

 

[Iacchus32]

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, there is no "true meaning" - to anything. All meaning we see or perceive is that which we create.

What, are you saying there is no reality outside of what we perceive then? Sounds like you can pretty much believe what you want to believe then, right? It sounds to me like one of us needs to decide whether reality exists or it doesn't exist.

 

[The Bellman]

What, are you saying there is no reality outside of what we perceive then? Sounds like you can pretty much believe what you want to believe then, right? It sounds to me like one of us needs to decide whether reality exists or it doesn't exist.

No. Reality IS, whether we are here to perceive it or not. That's not the issue. The issue is some "meaning" to the whole thing. There is none.

 

[inHisgrip]

That is rather sad to think that there is no purpose to us being here.
I believe that there is meaning and for everyone it is probably different.
but, to think that there is no meaning to living, then what is the point?
I feel for you,
In Him

 

[Iacchus32]

No. Reality IS, whether we are here to perceive it or not. That's not the issue. The issue is some "meaning" to the whole thing. There is none.

Does the foot, the toe, the finger have a relation to the body as a whole? This is where we find meaning, in relation to the absoluteness of the whole, be it your body or, the entire Universe.

 

[challenger]

That is rather sad to think that there is no purpose to us being here.
I believe that there is meaning and for everyone it is probably different.
but, to think that there is no meaning to living, then what is the point?
I feel for you,
In Him

What's your purpose then? Just because there is no arbitrarily assigned outside purpose to life, doesn't mean that we can't assign ourselves purpose. Humanity rejoice, you are the master of your own destiny

 

[The Bellman]

Does the foot, the toe, the finger have a relation to the body as a whole? This is where we find meaning, in relation to the absoluteness of the whole, be it your body or, the entire Universe.

That's where YOU find meaning. That is not evidence that such meaning exists.

 

[The Bellman]

That is rather sad to think that there is no purpose to us being here.
I believe that there is meaning and for everyone it is probably different.
but, to think that there is no meaning to living, then what is the point?
I feel for you,
In Him

No, it's not sad at all. Whatever meaning there is we, ourselves, create.

 

[burrow_owl]

Does the foot, the toe, the finger have a relation to the body as a whole? This is where we find meaning, in relation to the absoluteness of the whole, be it your body or, the entire Universe.

Conflating teleology and semiology is bad form. I don't see how purpose and meaning are coextensive.

Since I have a feeling I won't get a good answer, I'll give it myself: the OP wrongly confuses two meanings of 'meaning': the first is semantic or referential meaning. The second is purposive (what is the meaning of this keyboard? In this latter sense, its meaning is something like that-which-is-to-be-typed-upon. We Heideggerians would note that this is the world of the ready-to-hand).

Inasmuch as there's an argument somewhere in there, the OP proceeds by way of collapsing the difference between these two distinct senses of meaning. Yet, they seem clearly different: this rock in front of me has a certain 'meaning' - it's igneous, and came from the earth's core, yet it serves no apparent purpose to me.

So, the task before the OP'er is to demonstrate how the two senses of meaning are somehow connected, and which one is logically prior to the other.

I'll be waiting with baited breath.

 

[inHisgrip]

No, it's not sad at all. Whatever meaning there is we, ourselves, create.

It is sad if you have no meaning. If you have created meaning for yourself then that is great. I just got the impression that you were saying you had no meaning in your life, that to me, is quite sad.

For me it is serving God and others. If I can bring joy to someones life even in a small way, it is quite fullfilling.
In Him

 

[Iacchus32]

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts ... by which the parts derive purpose in relation to the whole.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? ~ 1 Corintians 12:12-19

 

[burrow_owl]

You know what's funny, is that in a world which has no true meaning -- of course it does, otherwise how could these very words appear before you?....

Still waiting for an explanation of this seeming category mistake.

It shouldn't take that long to go to a Ravi Zacharias website and back (heh heh....)

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts ... by which the parts derive purpose in relation to the whole.

Fabulous. What does purpose have to do with semantic meaning, now? This is a gap in the argument big enough to fly a jumbojet through.

 

[Nightstrike]

it still brings up, how did that stuff get there to make the big bag...
or are you gonna claim the big crunch...

 

[Iacchus32]

Still waiting for an explanation of this seeming category mistake.

It shouldn't take that long to go to a Ravi Zacharias website and back (heh heh....)

Do you mean in reference to what the words mean? No, I'm referring to the fact that the words appear at all, you know, that it's staring you in the face? In which case it could be just about anything, say like the comuter screen perhaps? I only mentioned the words because it was immediate and it's what you happened to be looking at. If you go back and look at the original post you should have no trouble seeing this is what I was trying to say.

Fabulous. What does purpose have to do with semantic meaning, now? This is a gap in the argument big enough to fly a jumbojet through.

And what do semantics have to do with anything?

 

[wayfaring man]

Aloha ,

The purpose of meaning is to establish and confirm purpose .

And the meaning of purpose is that which gives and enhances meaning .

Aloha ,

wm