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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Serious question

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Achilles6129

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"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt. 7:22-23

A strange verse, is it not? Where is the love, the compassion, the mercy of Christ for these people? I thought God was all about love and forgiveness for sinners - and here he is rejecting folks who prophesy, cast out devils, and do many wonderful works IN HIS NAME. Strange, isn't it? Why would God do that? Is this verse, perhaps, Christ warning us of something? If so, of what?

This verse must be looked at extremely carefully. The first thing to note is the word MANY. Christ says that this happens to MANY people. The greek word for many is polus, meaning many, much, largely, mostly, often. The next word to look at is prophesied. The word for prophesied is propheteuo, meaning to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office. This word is from prophetes, a foreteller(prophet), and inspired speaker, a poet. Clearly these folks GENUINELY prophesy. Christ does not deny their claim. As a matter of fact, He does not even challenge it.
The next thing to look at is the fact that they have cast out devils in Christ's name. They have also done many wonderful works in Christ's name. The word for wonderful works is dunamis, meaning force, miraculous power(usually by impl. a miracle itself). Thus we understand these folk have prophesied, cast out devils, and done many miracles all IN CHRIST'S NAME.

If this is truly the case, why are they rejected? The answer lies within Christ's response. Note how Christ does not deny their claims, nor even so much as challenge their claims to have done all these deeds. He simply claims "I never knew you", and then follows it up by saying that these folks in fact work iniquity. The word for iniquity is anomia which means illegality, violation of the law, wickedness. The word for never is oudepote, meaning not at all, never at any time.

To sum up: These people have prophesied in Christ's name, cast out devils in Christ's name, done many miracles in Christ's name, and yet are rejected with "I never knew you". You're telling me that many people did all of these things in Christ's name and somehow "missed out" on a 30-second prayer required to save their souls? They "missed out" on a simple acceptance of Christ into their heart? How could anyone do these great works of faith that these people have done, and fail to believe in Jesus Christ, accept Christ into their heart(which takes 30 seconds, apparently), and then hence be saved? Had they done this, then, according to modern christianity, they are saved - and if they fall away, Christ cannot say "I never knew you" because he had known them once - that would make his statement of I NEVER knew you to be a lie!
The problem is in fact deeper than most people realize. The problem here lies with the fact that these people THOUGHT they were saved. In fact, I believe that they were CERTAIN OF IT right down until the end. They embraced a false doctrine, a doctrine that told them they were saved when in fact they were not saved.

Consider: Christ says He never knew them. John 17:3 tells us that knowing God and Christ is salvation. Then, quite frankly, these people NEVER had salvation, or else Christ's statement is an outright lie. The reason these people are rejected is that their salvation doctrine is wrong - it told them they were saved when they weren't. Modern christianity tells us to accept Christ into our heart and then we are saved - if this is the case, why were these people rejected? The reason is because modern christianity's salvation doctrine is false, although they do not realize it. They are the church of Laodicea mentioned by Christ in Rev. 3:14-21, which even most people have come to recognize is modern christianity.

There are many other passages which raise questions about modern christianity's doctrine which I have not listed. These are found all over the Bible, and should be searched/studied out. These verses, along with this verse, raise serious questions about the salvation doctrine of modern christianity.
 

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"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt. 7:22-23

sounds like we better be making sure we have a relationship with God first
 
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Achilles6129 said:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt. 7:22-23

A strange verse, is it not? Where is the love, the compassion, the mercy of Christ for these people? I thought God was all about love and forgiveness for sinners - and here he is rejecting folks who prophesy, cast out devils, and do many wonderful works IN HIS NAME. Strange, isn't it? Why would God do that? Is this verse, perhaps, Christ warning us of something? If so, of what?

This verse must be looked at extremely carefully. The first thing to note is the word MANY. Christ says that this happens to MANY people. The greek word for many is polus, meaning many, much, largely, mostly, often. The next word to look at is prophesied. The word for prophesied is propheteuo, meaning to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office. This word is from prophetes, a foreteller(prophet), and inspired speaker, a poet. Clearly these folks GENUINELY prophesy. Christ does not deny their claim. As a matter of fact, He does not even challenge it.
The next thing to look at is the fact that they have cast out devils in Christ's name. They have also done many wonderful works in Christ's name. The word for wonderful works is dunamis, meaning force, miraculous power(usually by impl. a miracle itself). Thus we understand these folk have prophesied, cast out devils, and done many miracles all IN CHRIST'S NAME.

If this is truly the case, why are they rejected? The answer lies within Christ's response. Note how Christ does not deny their claims, nor even so much as challenge their claims to have done all these deeds. He simply claims "I never knew you", and then follows it up by saying that these folks in fact work iniquity. The word for iniquity is anomia which means illegality, violation of the law, wickedness. The word for never is oudepote, meaning not at all, never at any time.

To sum up: These people have prophesied in Christ's name, cast out devils in Christ's name, done many miracles in Christ's name, and yet are rejected with "I never knew you". You're telling me that many people did all of these things in Christ's name and somehow "missed out" on a 30-second prayer required to save their souls? They "missed out" on a simple acceptance of Christ into their heart? How could anyone do these great works of faith that these people have done, and fail to believe in Jesus Christ, accept Christ into their heart(which takes 30 seconds, apparently), and then hence be saved? Had they done this, then, according to modern christianity, they are saved - and if they fall away, Christ cannot say "I never knew you" because he had known them once - that would make his statement of I NEVER knew you to be a lie!
The problem is in fact deeper than most people realize. The problem here lies with the fact that these people THOUGHT they were saved. In fact, I believe that they were CERTAIN OF IT right down until the end. They embraced a false doctrine, a doctrine that told them they were saved when in fact they were not saved.

Consider: Christ says He never knew them. John 17:3 tells us that knowing God and Christ is salvation. Then, quite frankly, these people NEVER had salvation, or else Christ's statement is an outright lie. The reason these people are rejected is that their salvation doctrine is wrong - it told them they were saved when they weren't. Modern christianity tells us to accept Christ into our heart and then we are saved - if this is the case, why were these people rejected? The reason is because modern christianity's salvation doctrine is false, although they do not realize it. They are the church of Laodicea mentioned by Christ in Rev. 3:14-21, which even most people have come to recognize is modern christianity.

There are many other passages which raise questions about modern christianity's doctrine which I have not listed. These are found all over the Bible, and should be searched/studied out. These verses, along with this verse, raise serious questions about the salvation doctrine of modern christianity.

God is merciful and such, He tries to draw us to Himself, warn us and etc.....but if you choose not to heed him and continue in disobedience or feign a relationship w/ him or try to have Him and the world (which won't work) then you must face the consequences. God is love, but also just and holy.

Also, the "I never knew you part" is right. If you serve God, but fall away and don't return (and you can put on 'works' but not be really saved and serving God) then all the good is forgoten due to the unrepented sins in your life. Also, the people in this verse were obviously once saved, but fell away or simply got estranged/distanced from God while still putting up the works but w/o true relationship and holiness. This a lot of times in lukewarmness and you are either for God or not. You can see this again in Revelation talking to the churches, specifically the Laodicea church.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
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mark kennedy

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Jesus explains why this is, there is no great mystery:

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matt. 2:22)​

So what is the will of the Father. Jesus does a more indepth discussion of the day of judgment later in Matthew:

"And he will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kindgom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me"

(Matthew 25:33-36)​

If you really want to know what the reason they were rejected or accepted, He tells us:

"And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you inasmuch as you did to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me"

(Matthew 25:40)​

This reminds me of the passage at the end of Job. After God really tears into Job he turns to Job's friends and says:

"My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."

(Job 42:7)​

I have seen this translated 'My man Job', that is the feeling I'm getting from this passage. God takes the treatment of believers very personally. This is the praise the comes from God rather then men. This is the narrow gate even unbelievers can pass through. In as much as you have done it for the least of these my brethren you have done it for me.

Revelation is a progressive thing, we do well to watch and see how it develops as it progresses.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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KSUCE03

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Achilles6129 said:
Modern christianity tells us to accept Christ into our heart and then we are saved

:amen: I'm always skeptical when I hear, "I accepted Jesus into my heart." Does it mean that that person is not saved, not necessarily. I've never found, however, accept Jesus into your heart in Scripture.
 
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mark kennedy

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KSUCE03 said:
:amen: I'm always skeptical when I hear, "I accepted Jesus into my heart." Does it mean that that person is not saved, not necessarily. I've never found, however, accept Jesus into your heart in Scripture.

I think I know what you mean. I had to unlearn the Romans road to salvation to understand the book of Romans. I remember sitting down with a Baptist who flipped through his Bible asking me if I believed the things he pointed out. I was only about nine and I simply agreed to the truth of those passages. We then prayed and he assured me that was how a person is saved. When I was eighteen I was wittnessed to by a guy whose name I cannot remember. Later when I was getting ready for bed I prayed and told God if he wants me he will have to take me as I am. It was like he reached down and grabed me, I can't tell you how supprised I was by that. The Scriptures opened up to me in a big way, I have never been the same since.

Taking Jesus into your heart is really just an expression. Being born again is about recieving the Gospel and having a relationship with God through Christ.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Achilles6129

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Also, the people in this verse were obviously once saved, but fell away or simply got estranged/distanced from God while still putting up the works but w/o true relationship and holiness.

Really? They were "once saved"? This is quite a strange word Christ uses for these "once saved" folks, seeing as how he says he never (oudepote, not at all, never at any time) knew them. Note that knowing God and Christ is salvation, hence John 17:3, as I stated above. Also, one of you said the word studies did not matter - that's fine and you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. I simply did word studies because I thought that it would help us understand the verse a little better, not to take up space.

I think there is something alot deeper going on here than most people realize, which I stated in my first post. Most of you will disagree with me, and that's your right. I think that there is some sort of error in these people's doctrine, that makes them believe that they are saved, that they have a relationship with God, when in fact, they don't. Take a look:

"But there were false prophets also among the people(the old testament hebrews) even as there shall be(future) false teachers among you(the christians) who privily(secretly) shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying(contradicting) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of." 2 Pet. 2:1-2

Once again I think that this verse goes very deep. It seems here that Peter is talking about some sort of mainstream flaw in salvation doctrine which is why he says many embrace it and the way of the truth (strait gate, narrow way, Matt.7:13-14) is evil spoken of. I also find it interesting that Peter says many follow their pernicious ways....many are on the broad way in Matt. 7:13-14, and many are rejected in Matt. 7:22-23. Also remember many are called, but few are chosen (reference Matt. 7:13-14).

One of you said something which I have known for a while and which I find very interesting. He said "I'm always skeptical when I hear, "I accepted Jesus into my heart." Does it mean that that person is not saved, not necessarily. I've never found, however, accept Jesus into your heart in Scripture."
I have never found accept Jesus into your heart and be saved in 30 seconds in Scripture either. Want to know why? Because it's a lie that's why. You may disagree with me - that's your right - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Anyway, to sum up, I still find it highly unlikely that these people were not positive that they had a relationship with Christ. As I said before, I suspect it is a fatal flaw in salvation doctrine (reference to 2 Peter 2:1-2) that brought on this rejection.

Another thing: One of you quoted the preceding verse, Matt. 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Then obviously these poor souls did not do God's will, did they? Also, a host of other Scripture does not apply to them: Romans 8:1-2, 2 John 2, John 8:30-32, etc., etc. Christ never knew them - he says it himself. If he never at any time knew them, then they were never at any time made free, etc., etc., you get my point. A host of Scripture does not apply to them.

In closing: I appreciate your responses and value difference of opinion. However I feel that this verse goes very deep and quite possibly denies the very salvation doctrine of modern christianity itself. Most of you will disagree, and as I have said that's your right. Nevertheless, in the end it is not yours or mine interpretation of Scripture that matters - it is God's.
 
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Achilles6129 said:
Really? They were "once saved"? This is quite a strange word Christ uses for these "once saved" folks, seeing as how he says he never (oudepote, not at all, never at any time) knew them. Note that knowing God and Christ is salvation, hence John 17:3, as I stated above. .

You can't cast out demons and heal folks unless you serve God and His Spirit is in you....especially w/ casting out demons.

Knowing God is part of salvation BUT if you lose that salvation then it is forgoten if you never return to God. But that HS in you won't just get up and leave and thus you can still cast out and etc.....plus...being lukewarm will equal not entering heaven as well. God said He's spew you out if you are that....to be lukewarm you had to at one point got saved, but then became that (part of the world and God at once, eventhough you have to choose one or the other. If you aren't serving God fully, then it's meaningless.)
 
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Thinking on this topic, and I have heard this one talked about before. But to tell you the truth I hadnt really thought too much on it, well til now I decided to go ahead and dwell on the thought.

I think I understand what the Lord is speaking of here. It deals with authority. There is authority in the name of God (Old Testiment) and authority in the name of Jesus (New Testiment). This authority was given to those who believe and serve the Lord their God.

The difference between those who have been given the authority and those who have not, I think I can compare to a example from the New Testiment when a Roman soldier asked Jesus to heal his servant.

Now here is a comparision from our time era: A policeman has been given authority in our country to many things under the law. He has the authority to enforce the law or be leinent.

It isnt all the time, but we do have people who impersonate police, or we even have evil police who do not do the will of the government office they serve. (These would be the ones like what that scripture is speaking of).

Well anyways, that is just one of my thoughts on it at this time.
 
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Those that God speaks of are people that are false light, they try to make it okay to enjoy the world, and think it is okay because God allows it to be there. They seem to heal people, but it is through Satan. And it looks to be so real, that the person that received it feels they are healed. First of all, you cannot heal someone unless that is the spiritual gift you received from the Holy Spirit. Secondly, it is still God doing the healing through you. A person can seem to heal someone and use Jesus' name, but if that is not the gift given to him, the Lord does not know that person because he is not saved to begin with. That person is doing no better than causing perversion in the faith through satanic forces.
 
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Achilles6129

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Knowing God is part of salvation BUT if you lose that salvation then it is forgoten if you never return to God.

Interesting. Most interesting.

"There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:1-2

"For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us FOR EVER." 2 John 2

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall MAKE YOU FREE. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be FREE INDEED." John 8:31-36

"My sheep hear my voice, and I KNOW THEM, and they follow me: And I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27-28

The last verse is of especial importance when we're dealing with Matt. 7:22-23. Jesus Christ KNOWS his sheep, and he states they NEVER PERISH. On the contrary, he states that he does not know those folks in Matt. 7:22-23, and there is absolutely zero reason to believe he ever did know them. It is modern christianity attempting to reconcile their flawed doctrine - that is the reason why people believe he must have known these people in Matt. 7:22-23 at one time. Jesus Christ states in plain language above, that he knows his sheep, and THEY NEVER PERISH. You can't get much plainer than that, folks.

This debate has been going on between christians for hundreds if not thousands of years. The debate is basically once saved always saved or not? The reason no one seemingly has an answer to this is that the modern christian salvation doctrine has a flaw in it. It is not salvation at all - thus people are debating on once saved always saved or not when they don't even know what saved is! Yes, there are places in the Bible where it seems to say once you're saved you're not always saved - quite a few places as a matter of fact. But the assumption modern christianity makes is that their doctrine is true - then they must explain away the once saved always saved verses quoted above so they attempt to do this.
The reality is that their salvation doctrine is false. It is flawed. There is no 30 second salvation. There is no instant prayer salvation. It is all a total and complete lie, just like Peter said (2 Pet. 2:1-2). If one realizes that it is a lie, then the verses that seem to contradict about once saved always saved or not suddenly don't contradict. A clearer pictures emerges. One realizes what the Scripture is really saying, that one must continue, abide in, endure, fight, strive, labor fervently, in Christ's doctrine, until one is "made free" by Christ. One is then saved, and forever, just like it says above. The reason the modern christians cannot see this is because they are blindly following their believe in 30 seconds doctrine.
It is in reality what Christ is saying all along. Christ says the the narrow way "leadeth unto" (not is) life. Paul tells Timothy to fight the good fight of faith, "lay hold" on eternal life. Why is Paul telling Timothy to lay hold on eternal life IF TIMOTHY ALREADY HAS ETERNAL LIFE??? That's a million dollar question.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned UNTO FABLES." 2 Tim. 4:3-4

"But if, while we seek to be justifed by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Gal. 2:17

Where is the seeking to be justified by Christ with modern christianity? There is none - their preachers claim that they are justified after one minute of prayer/acceptance. And again:

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;" 1 Pet. 1:13

That's weird, I thought you had grace brought unto you when you accepted Christ into your heart. I thought all I needed to do was say my prayer asking for forgiveness and I was under grace.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21

Wow. I thought we already had eternal life after we accepted Christ into our hearts? The way Jude says it here, one might almost think those disciples he's talking about don't have eternal life yet.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear a second time without sin unto salvation." Heb. 9:28

Here we go again! The same thing that Jude and Peter are saying. I wonder if this might be a coincidence. Note UNTO SALVATION. Makes it sound as if these people don't have salvation yet, doesn't it?

It's all very interesting, isn't it?


"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." John 15:2

According to the modern christian doctrine, if I say my one minute prayer of repentance and invite Christ into my heart I'm saved. I am now "in Christ". If I am saved, and in Christ, and know Christ, after one minute of repentance, THEN WHY IS GOD TAKING BRANCHES IN CHRIST AWAY? You know why? Because not every one that believes in Christ is saved, that's why. Because saying that one minute prayer and inviting Christ into my heart is not salvation, that's why. One still has to enter in at the strait gate, continue, abide in, endure, fight, strive, labor, etc., until grace comes(1 Pet. 1:13), that's why.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Jude 1:4

If they were creeping in way back then, how much more 1900 years later?
 
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mark kennedy said:
I think I know what you mean. I had to unlearn the Romans road to salvation to understand the book of Romans. I remember sitting down with a Baptist who flipped through his Bible asking me if I believed the things he pointed out. I was only about nine and I simply agreed to the truth of those passages. We then prayed and he assured me that was how a person is saved. When I was eighteen I was wittnessed to by a guy whose name I cannot remember. Later when I was getting ready for bed I prayed and told God if he wants me he will have to take me as I am. It was like he reached down and grabed me, I can't tell you how supprised I was by that. The Scriptures opened up to me in a big way, I have never been the same since.

Taking Jesus into your heart is really just an expression. Being born again is about recieving the Gospel and having a relationship with God through Christ.

Grace and peace,
Mark


Amen, and Amen, and...AMEN!!
 
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