Serious question for the so-called "speaking in tongues" of charismatics

[Lifesaver]

The main sign of charismatics is the, as they call it (properly or not), speaking in tongues. People with this are said to be "led by the Holy Spirit".

It is often brought up that protestants also have this (actually, the charismatic movement was invented in pentecostal protestantism), and how can someone who believes, at least in part, in heresies?
But okay, since their faith is still very similar to Catholicism, most people would argue they can also be led by the Holy Spirit (though why the Holy Spirit wouldn't lead them to the Catholic Church, but actually encourage them to stay in their usually Catholic-hating group, is beyond me).

However, oneness pentescostals also have the same exact "gift of tongues". As we all know, this offshoot from protestantism doesn't even belive in the Trinity. They think Jesus Christ is the Father and the Holy Spirit, in a form of modalism with Jesus as the only person doing multiple tasks.
They cannot be called Christian even by the most liberal definitions of the term. They are also virulently anti-ecclesiastical and rabidly iconoclast.

How can any Catholic charismatic claim that this thing that is called "speaking in tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit when it is present in groups ever more separate from true Christianity?

Plus, it is not leading these groups closer to Catholicism, but convincing them of their anti-Catholic positions. Catholic charismatics, however, often give little importance to the Holy Sacraments, to the proper liturgy, and some even treat non-charismatics (that is, who does not speak in tongues or some such thing) as if their faith is dead.

When it's protestants who should be getting closer to Catholicism, it is catholics who are acting rather like protestants.

Could it be that the Church was lost amidst its "legalism" and "coldness" that it missed the true faith, which for some time could only be found in protestantism, until Catholics began practicing charismatism as well?
My opinion, of course, is that this could never be!

 

[Abba]

"Speaking in tongues" has been done by complete pagans as well. It is just a phychological phenomenon.

 

[Irenaeus]

Lifesaver,

It's true that the tongues phenomena occurs among pagan religions, like during voodoo rituals. I don't think that automatically says the experience is fake. I think it may mean it's easy to counterfeit by the dark side or by psychological problems.

But that information in particular has made me wary of the gift myself, as it seems to be exercised nowadays.

 

[Lifesaver]

Yes, I indeed think it is psychological, and that the true speaking in tongues must be very distinguishable from what we see in charismatic shows.

Or, if charismatics are really guided by the spirit, it is not the Holy Spirit, for He could never lead them further away from the Catholic Church.

 

[Irenaeus]

Lifesaver,

I have heard of several Charismatics who have become disillusioned and left the movement (and sometimes even the Church) because they felt that it didn't "do something for them."

Some people to go Charismatic meetings for the wrong reasons - not to worship God, but to get a buzz and a high and then expect that to carry someone on in the spiritual life. I remember John of the Cross, "Seek not the consolations of God, but the God of consolations."

Many of the behaviors in voodoo rituals are comparable to that in Protestant charismatic meetings. A ritual usually involves music, usually very lively music, shouting, sometimes chaotic dancing, eventually going into a frenzy which the Voodoo Priests believe the spirits of the dead actually come back to indwell the person for a time; it is at this time they begin speaking in very strange manners, extremely similar to the glossalia recorded at Protestant gatherings.

This sort of behavior occurs sometimes at certain Charismatic meetings, but I certainly cannot say at all of them. In addition people experience: "Holy Ghost Laughter," where they laugh uncontrollably for hours at a time, "Holy Ghost glue," where the receiver is stuck on the floor or a wall similarly for hours, "Drunk in the Spirit," where a person acts virtually inebriated sometimes for an entire day. There is also slain in the Spirit, which I'm sure most people know about.

Many Protestant Charismatics I have read point toward certain revivals, for example the Two "Great Awakenings". Johnathan Edwards (though himself a cessationist) John Wesley, etc. all mention people in their writings of people at their revivals who would spasmodically speak in other tongues and cry out, claiming to see "visions of hell, the devil, and the damned", and even prophecy concerning future events. Both preachers begged God never to see such things again.

I have heard myself that in the Azusa street revival in the 1920's, witchcraft was involved, with soothsayers frequenting the revival.

Just information to those who want to discern. I personally am not against the Charismatic movement, but I look at it with a watchful eye.

 

[3toraiseup]

Here are some words from a letter of Pope John Paul II to Charismatic Catholics:

"You represent communities of the Charismatic Movement from around the world, which, in their variety, bear witness to the spiritual gifts which the Holy Spirit is bestowing on the Church even in our own day (cf. Christifideles laici, n. 24). How can we fail to praise God for the abundant fruit which in recent decades the Renewal in the Spirit has brought about in the lives of individuals and in communities? Countless people have come to appreciate the importance of Sacred Scripture for Christian living they have acquired a new sense of the value of prayer and a profound yearning for holiness, many have returned to the sacraments, and a great number of men and women have achieved a deeper understanding of their baptismal call, and have committed themselves to the Church's mission with admirable dedication. In thanking God for all of this, I repeat the words which I wrote in the Encyclical Letter Redemptoris missio: "As the third millennium of the Redemption draws near, God is preparing a great springtime for Christianity, and we can already see its first signs" (n. 86)."

In this letter, the Pope exhorted Charismatic Catholics to be active in their local parishes and thanked them for being part of the new evangelization.

 

[Irenaeus]

Raiseup,

I personally greatly respect JPII's words. And Charismatic Catholics have done and are doing a world of good among us! Praise God!

I just think though, like Lifesaver, caution is always advisable, especially where the supernatural is concerned.

 

[3toraiseup]

Raiseup,

I just think though, like Lifesaver, caution is always advisable, especially where the supernatural is concerned.

I absolutely agree. I might have a small chip on my shoulder as I was raised in a wonderful Pentecostal church. I can understand how tongues and other outpourings of the Holy Spirit cause the hairs to rise on the back of one's neck. Personally, I struggle with acceptance of Apparitions.

As with all events outside the natural, discernment is wise.

 

[Lifesaver]

Yes, we must have a very watchful eye.
And let's not fool ourselves thinking that a blessing from the pope is an official acceptance of something.
Afterall, the materialist and marxist Liberation Theology was also once blessed, and is now condemned, even in its lighter forms.

 

[twosteppin]

I went to a charismatic church's youth group for almost a year. The stuff that goes on there is completely shocking. I remember this one time, a girl was rolling on the floor screaming and moaning, and then she was laying in the position a female would be during labor or intercoarse, and no one seemed to be concerned or shocked. They told me she was "giving birth" to a new revalation from God.
I've seen people "drunk in the spirit" (rolling on the floor. making animal noices)

Some people to go Charismatic meetings for the wrong reasons - not to worship God, but to get a buzz and a high and then expect that to carry someone on in the spiritual life. I remember John of the Cross, "Seek not the consolations of God, but the God of consolations."

couldnt agree more. at the youth group I went to, it wasnt a successful night unless someone was slain, drunk, or laughing the spirit.

 

[Lifesaver]

Oh my, that is horrible.

It is not hard to see how strikingly differently from traditional Catholicism that is.

 

[marciadietrich]

Pentecostal/charismatic churches vary. I never saw any of the drunk attitude or people rolling in the aisles. It was simply speaking in tongues - I never did myself and when I was young it frightened me. I believe it is mostly a peer pressure/psychological phenomenon. In the Assemblies of God they didn't say it was necessary for salvation (didn't judge someone's salvation status on it) but it was required to show one of those gifts of the spirit to be a minister. What is the easiest one to fake? ... tongues. So I am sure that there was huge pressure to make something happen if you were wanting to be ordained.

Marcia

 

[3toraiseup]

Last night, I found this article, "A Closer Look at the Charismatic Renewal" on a web site titled 'Catholic Culture'. I am not familiar with this web-site and do not know if it is orthodox to the faith or not. It was interesting in that it explained how Pentecostalism displayed the fruits of the movement, but did not have a sound theology behind. As the movement flowed into Catholicism, Catholic theologians have attempted to develop a theology to support the outward signs. So, as mentioned, read at your own risk... I am not familiar with this source.

As with any supernatural occurences, there will be abuses. Note that we have both approved and unapproved Marian Apparitions. As Marcia also suggested, not all Charismatics are to the same degree as some of the extreme goings on that have been described here. I personally spent my entire childhood growing up in a Charismatic church and never witnessed people rolling around, laughing uncontrollably or glued to chairs. People did speak in tounges and were slain in the spirit, but that was not the central focus of their faith. The good news of Jesus Christ was the focus.

Also recall that visions and experiences similar to those described by Wesley and other Protestants have been experienced by Catholic saints. St Theresa of Avila felt her heart pierced by Jesus. St John on the Island of Patmos was transported to another place and wrote the book of Revelation based on visions of horrible and wonderful events on earth and in heaven.

 

[Irenaeus]

Raise up,

Catholic Culture is a good site. Thank you for sharing.

St Theresa of Avila felt her heart pierced by Jesus. St John on the Island of Patmos was transported to another place and wrote the book of Revelation based on visions of horrible and wonderful events on earth and in heaven.

There is a substantial difference between transverberation (sp?) of the heart, (which several saints have experienced) and being drunk in the Spirit and whatnot. In every case with the mystical doctors, they would come out "inebriated with love", but that didn't mean they acted like lunatics. In many cases their intellect was sharpened.

John may have had visions, as well as many saints, but what the Protestant Pastors were objecting to is the chaos all the charismania caused.

 

[3toraiseup]

Quote:




John may have had visions, as well as many saints, but what the Protestant Pastors were objecting to is the chaos all the charismania caused.





Rightly so. This chaos was also occuring in the early church where Paul must write corrections. cf 1 Cor 12:1-11. The footnotes in my Catholic Bible state the following,

"Ecstatic activity and charismatic activity were common in early Christian experience, as they were in other ancient religions. But the Corinthians seem to have developed a disproportionate esteem for certain phenomena, especially tongues, to the detriment of order in the liturgy. Paul's response to this development provides us with the fullest exposition we have of his theology of the charisms.

There is an experience of the Spirit and an understanding of ecstaic phenomena that are specifically Christian and that differ, despite apparent similarities, from those of the pagans. It is necessary to discern which spirit is leading one; ecstatic phenomena must be judged by their effect. Verse 3 illustrates this by an example: power to confess Jesus as Lord can come only from the Spirit, and it is inconceivable that the Spirit would move anyone to curse the Lord."

However, I was under the impression that this thread was speaking about tongues and other outpourings of the Spirit and whether or not these gifts were heretical because the Charismatic Renewal began in Protestantism. My point was that Protestant Charismatics such as Wesley experienced outpourings of the Spirit, as did St Theresa and St John. Not all such outpourings are of the Holy Spirit. We know that there are Weeds among the Wheat. We also have the Word to turn to for help. Charismatic outpourings, as taught by Paul should be orderly. Toungues should have an interpretation etc.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

How can any Catholic charismatic claim that this thing that is called "speaking in tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit when it is present in groups ever more separate from true Christianity?

The gift of tongues is promised in scripture. Just because that there are "fakes", does not mean that it can't be a real gift. Some of the extremism is crowd psychology and peer pressure, but the imitators only serve to discredit the legitimate.

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

I think that we should study the phenomenon more closely, before we just discard it out of hand.

 

[Skripper]

Although some of this may be (and probably is) authentic, I suspect much (if not most) of it is not from the Holy Spirit. Here's an interesting quote from an article on the topic. The person began to suspect that something wasn't quite right, so he performed a little experiement:

Former Pentecostalist Gerry Matatics recalled an experience he had as he started to suspect something amiss with the Pentecostal rallies he was attending. Having memorized the twenty-second Psalm in Hebrew, he exclaimed the equivalent of "The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want" during one of the "revivals," only to have it interpreted by the "translator" as a message from God instructing the audience to help build an extra wing on the local pastor's house!

Full article found here:
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020510_BR_Charismatic.html

I've also read a similar account of someone memorizing a certain amount of gibberish that he made up himself, quite consciously, then repeating it, verbatim, at a few different charismatic gatherings, only to have it "interpreted" each time by someone else in the audience. It makes one wonder . . .

My own guess is that both examples above could be repeated over and over again with similar results, across the nation, where "speaking in tounges" is promoted.

 

[Benedicta00]

How can any Catholic charismatic claim that this thing that is called "speaking in tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit when it is present in groups ever more separate from true Christianity?

Because the Spirit blows as He wills (John 3). Some are authentic, some aren't, He will give His gifts outside the Church to make His Church be known.

I know I have used analogy this before in the past but the difference between Catholic Charismatics and Protestants is akin to a fire place in your home, when the fire is in the fire place, it is a good thing, it gives light and warms you home but when you take it and put it in the middle of your living room, it will burn down your house.

The Protestant may have authentic gifts but they do not have benefit of the fullness of truth to guide them and to provide the necessary discernment, so they become somewhat of a target for the enemy and are tempted with great pride, that is why you see much abuse done to the gifts of the Spirit in non Catholic and even in some Catholic Charismatics. It is a matter of obedience.

 

[Benedicta00]

I also want to add that speaking in tongues is the least of all the gifts given. This seems to be the only or the most emphasized gift the Protestants have.

Catholics are given much more significant and miraculous phenomena to build up the Church. I think that explains a lot and should answer your question.

 

[anthropologistfrommarsmom]

"However, oneness pentescostals also have the same exact "gift of tongues".



how do you know this? Alot of pentecostal churches I have heard of actually "teach" the speaking of tongues which is phony and blasphemous, it can't be taught. the way to tell if it is real is that it will be interpreted in our language and you will feel peace combined with love and you feel like weeping for joy of the lord. At the methodist church I attend they don't allow tongues, but sometimesImiss it( I used to attend pentecostal church)

"How can any Catholic charismatic claim that this thing that is called "speaking in tongues" is a gift of the Holy Spirit when it is present in groups ever more separate from true Christianity?"

In this protestant's view it is because the bible says so, period.I believe Paul is the one who talks of this.


"When it's protestants who should be getting closer to Catholicism, it is catholics who are acting rather like protestants."


How do you know that to be true?. The Passion is a very Catholic movie that I adore. I believe Catholics and Protestants are closer together than ever.


"Could it be that the Church was lost amidst its "legalism" and "coldness" that it missed the true faith, which for some time could only be found in protestantism, until Catholics began practicing charismatism as well?"

Yes. it could!