Separation of Church and State

[99percentatheism]

Weren't all "public schools" in Churches?

 

[99percentatheism]

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In regards to your "treaty" relic. I'm sure you know, that statement was added by Barlow and didn't appear in the original. If read in its entirety that article is meant to distant the U.S. from the atrocities of the European Christians.

Those atrocities were caused by Muslims attacking Christian Jerusalem. The Mulsims insigated the wars.

At that time it was muslim pirates holding christian sailors for prisoners.

And that is the Christians' fault?

We were trying to avoid another Crusade.

Iy wouldn't have been a "Crusade" it would have just been a war agianst Muslims to get them to stop killing other people.



That treaty was ratified under Adams, who said,

"

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature", in a letter to Jefferson.

Adams in other letters seemed remorseful about the Treaty.

The "treaty" was simply politics. Appeasing Muslims.

Some things never change. Like failing to appease Muslims no matter what you do . . . short of converting to Islam the religion of peace. Then again, the Shiities and the Suni's are both Muslims . . . No appeasement there.

The whole notion that seperation of Church and State means what New York is doing to Christians TODAY simply ignores the intense hatred the enemies of Christianity have for Christians and the Christian history of the (so-called) United States.

 

[BondiHarry]

2. Jefferson had a lot more to say as well. Keep quoting. Mind you, he was a Deist, not a Christian.

Really? Jefferson certainly considered himself to be a Christian. Since you say he was not a Christian why not demonstrate what the Bible has to say about who is a follower of Jesus.

They didn't follow Christianity however. Most had, at best, a Unitarian or Deist view of the Divine, and those who were Christians were liberal or nominal for the time.

The writings of the founding fathers belie what you are claiming here. Most of the FF were indeed Christian including several who the naysayers constantly claim were deists.

 

[99percentatheism]

Really? Jefferson certainly considered himself to be a Christian. Since you say he was not a Christian why not demonstrate what the Bible has to say about who is a follower of Jesus.

Can a person being a "Christian" while denying the supernatural basis on which that designation stands or falls?

The writings of the founding fathers belie what you are claiming here. Most of the FF were indeed Christian including several who the naysayers constantly claim were deists.

But in a society so dumbed down by a progressive education, most students don't even know who John Kennedy was. How do we get the truth to the masses? I mean some of the "original colonies" had official Christian denominations designanted as such.

 

[99percentatheism]

Did Jefferson consider himself to be the almighty voice to end the discussion of every issue?

Why is this one guy so overpowering that everyone has to live by all of his opinions?

 

[Albion]

Really? Jefferson certainly considered himself to be a Christian.

Agreed. It's always been a little disconcerting to me when people say with confidence that he was a Deist and not a Christian. But he didn't belong to any Deist church or society whereas he DID hold membership in a Christian congregation.

 

[Albion]

George Washington was a Mason, I might add. Completely unorthodox there.

Masonry is a fraternity open to men without regard to denomination. In this country, it's openly Christian. In that sense, it's much like the Boy Scouts. Neither of them is a religion or aspires to be one.

 

[PaladinValer]

Masonry is a fraternity open to men without regard to denomination. In this country, it's openly Christian. In that sense, it's much like the Boy Scouts. Neither of them is a religion or aspires to be one.

In orthodox Christianity, you cannot be both a Christian and a Mason. The current ABC, EP, and Pope all agree on this.

 

[Albion]

In orthodox Christianity, you cannot be both a Christian and a Mason.

Well, in your church and my church you certainly can be both, so either we are to believe that our churches are not orthodox or you have some facts wrong.

"current ABC, EP, and Pope all agree on this" you say...and yet all of them belong to OTHER churches, don't they?

Besides, the Archbishop of Canterbury (who is also a Druid ?!) has recanted his criticism, which was purely personal in the first place, and apologized for his earlier comments. A more famous ABC, Geoffrey Fisher, was a prominent Mason as you may know, and both branches of Masonry in the UK are headed by members of the royal family.

 

[diychristian]

In orthodox Christianity, you cannot be both a Christian and a Mason. The current ABC, EP, and Pope all agree on this.

Alot of the Founding Fathers had great problems with the Catholic Church and the Pope.

Here's a link with a list of the Founding Fathers and there religious affilliations: Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

 

[diychristian]

[/color]

Those atrocities were caused by Muslims attacking Christian Jerusalem. The Mulsims insigated the wars.

You're right. I understand that Christians were simply counter-attacking, but from the Muslim point it apparently seemed as unjustified actions.

 

[drjean]

Problem: a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

In other words, the words don't have to be there for the idea to be there. Just the philosophy. Since the philosophy was there, then whether the exact wording of it as "separation of church and state" was uttered or not is inconsequential.



Um, Jefferson was one of the Founding Fathers.

You just contradicted yourself...



1. The Church of England isn't political. It is spiritual. Non-Anglicans have some strange ideas of what it means for the monarch of England to be the "Supreme Governor" of the CoE (note, only the CoE, not the Anglican Communion). It has nothing to do with being an Anglican version of Pope, but merely 1) The Pope has no such authority over it and 2) That the State have a united "diverse" Church. The monarch has no real power over the ecclesial, doctrinal, etc, affairs...none. The only "power" Elizabeth II currently has is to install the Archbishop of Canterbury, and it is pomp and circumstance, nothing more.

2. Jefferson had a lot more to say as well. Keep quoting. Mind you, he was a Deist, not a Christian.



Sorry, the intent was to prevent a national state religion of any denomination, sect, or entire faith. That means no promoting any one over the other. It also meant not allowing the State to control what the people were to believe, especially since many of the colonies were founded for religious purposes and that the Founding Fathers were children of the Enlightenment. The idea that you have here is not true whatsoever and if you took the time to study the Enlightenment and, in context, the Founding Fathers, you'd see that.



Complete tripe. See the above.



They didn't follow Christianity however. Most had, at best, a Unitarian or Deist view of the Divine, and those who were Christians were liberal or nominal for the time.

I have no idea who has been teaching you such false history.... but it's easy to counter your errors if you would study the issues (and not just look for what you think is correct.) I know that the muslims have been editting our history books here in the USA and not only leaving important aspects out, but changing much of the truth (whomever's idea it was to farm this out to them must be a traitor imo)...

The Church of England was political...it was the arm of the government. That's the main reason the USA became a country, an escape from such tyranny...and they surely weren't going to allow it here.

The other main idea you have that is wrong is that our founders were not Christian. Just read their works and arguments and you will how very strong they were in the Christianity. That you think they were Deists tells me where you have been gleaning your material... try www.WALLBUILDERS.com instead.
WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - Sample Letters to the Editor

In fact, Jefferson himself declared, “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” While many might question this claim, the fact remains that Jefferson called himself a Christian, not a deist.

Alexander Hamilton was certainly no deist. For example, Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: (1) Christianity, and (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.”

Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist. Nor does George Washington. He was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn “above all” was the “religion of Jesus Christ,” and that to learn this would make them “greater and happier than they already are”; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that “To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian”; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that “without a humble imitation” of “the Divine Author of our blessed religion” we “can never hope to be a happy nation.” Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.







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[diychristian]

The other main idea you have that is wrong is that our founders were not Christian. Just read their works and arguments and you will how very strong they were in the Christianity. That you think they were Deists tells me where you have been gleaning your material... try www.WALLBUILDERS.com instead.
WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - Sample Letters to the Editor

I've got several books over the Christian heritage of America. For Christmas I was given the American Heritage Series I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I like the Wallbuilders site as well. Have you been to the Library of Congress' website and check out the link Religion and the Founding of the American Republic (Library of Congress Exhibition) it talks about America's religious history from the very beginning to present day. There I learned that Jefferson and Franklin both proposed biblical symbols for the American seal. It's great to see original documents from a reliable source.

 

[diychristian]

Spurious. This is supposed to have been said in reply to Major Pitcairn's demand to “Disperse, ye villains, lay down your arms in the name of George the Sovereign King of England.” Clark's own account makes no mention or this (or any other) reply, however. “No king but King Jesus” was the slogan of the Fifth Monarchists during the Interregnum in England, but there is little evidence for its use during the American Revolution." (As quoted from John Adams - Wikiquote)

I have to admit I skipped over alot of your links. I decided to go back and start checking them out. First one I checked out was your John Adams link. In it were some quotes from his diary, I noticed every other quote mentioned either religion, morality, or Christianity. Here are a couple quotes I found interesting.


"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence, were ... the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united"-John Adams

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my Religion."- John Adams in letter to Jefferson.

I will continue looking at your links. I enjoy this stuff.