Sensus Fidelium

[Michelina]

Since no one corrected me, and given what you've written here Michelina, I am hopeful that I wasn't too far off base in seeing a connection between proper conscience formation on the individual level and the idea of sensus fidelius on the macro level. That without the proper conscience formation, education in faith and adherence to authority of the Church you can't have a sense of the faithful among a group that has malformed consciences and attitudes (i.e. arrogant and ignorant). Marcia

That is an excellent way to express it, Marcia! Better than mine.

 

[marciadietrich]

That is an excellent way to express it, Marcia! Better than mine.

thanks, You put out all the great information and resources. I'm just trying to digest and categorize it in a way I can understand and recall it.

 

[Michelina]

thanks, You put out all the great information and resources. I'm just trying to digest and categorize it in a way I can understand and recall it.

Your way of putting it really is an excellent way to put it and to remember it. I'll be using it myself. You are a Teacher, if I recall correctly. Or maybe you just seem like one. At any rate, Marcia, thanks for teaching me a good way to explain it. Carrie usually does that too.

 

[marciadietrich]

Carrie does a great job explaining things. Some sharp ladies around here.

I'm not a teacher (my degree was in Accounting), but I took so many classes getting my degree perhaps I qualify as a professional student.

Marcia

 

[Mustaphile]

Ah..ok. I found the definition of Modernism just prior to reading this post and had a good read. I could have much to say about the issue, but I dont think it would achieve much. Is Catholicism ready for me? Am I ready for Catholicism? I dont know yet. I have a passion for God, surely that counts for something. I thought I saw a glimmer of hope for a second but it's been well and truely extinguished.

I'm a loosely defined Modernist I guess. One more thing to plague my conscience before I can make the decision to enter the Catholic faith. I might just have to settle for appreciating it from the outside.

Your input has been much appreciated.

 

[Carrye]

Ah..ok. I found the definition of Modernism just prior to reading this post and had a good read. I could have much to say about the issue, but I dont think it would achieve much. Is Catholicism ready for me? Am I ready for Catholicism? I dont know yet. I have a passion for God, surely that counts for something. I thought I saw a glimmer of hope for a second but it's been well and truely extinguished.

I'm a loosely defined Modernist I guess. One more thing to plague my conscience before I can make the decision to enter the Catholic faith. I might just have to settle for appreciating it from the outside.

Your input has been much appreciated.

Don't think we're going to let you leave that quickly, there sir! And while I don't know you, I wouldn't be too quick to categorize yourself as a modernist. I've been wondering this, and if you don't mind sharing, what specifically do you see as being in need of reform? Or what do you envision your role being in the Church?

 

[Michelina]

I took so many classes getting my degree perhaps I qualify as a professional student. Marcia

That explains it!

(Been there, done that.)

And the Accounting background may have given you an ability to put things together in a clear, concise and precise way. The Lord works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform. Isn't the Mystical Body great!

 

[Carrye]

That explains it!

(Been there, done that.)

And have the personal debt to prove it.

The Lord works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform. Isn't the Mystical Body great!

It's accepting our own particular contribution that's often most difficult. We must learn to see what we can do, while also recognizing what we cannot. Secular people would say that it is "knowing yourself", while religious would say that it is "allowing the Lord's grace to illuminate the self".

 

[Michelina]

I thought I saw a glimmer of hope for a second but it's been well and truely extinguished.

I'm a loosely defined Modernist I guess.

Whoa, Mustaphile! We are born into a world permeated by the attitudes that underlie Modernism. Our culture is saturated by it.

It's not WHAT we think; it's HOW we think that is the problem.

It permeates our culture, our literature, our cinema, TV, music, our value system, everything. Deep down. Silently it contaminates.

There was a Professor of Catechetics named Msgr. Eugene Kevane who gave the basic course on catechesis at a number of prestigious Universities and seminaries. The first part of his course was a History of Modern Philosophy! Students would scatch their heads and wonder why. Finally, after some time, he would explain that we have to understand HOW modern man thinks (not WHAT he thinks) in order to re-evangelize the West.

Our contemporary way of thinking is the result of centuries of -isms which excluded God. That is the problem. But there are plenty of people who conform their minds to what Revelation teaches us through Tradition (including the Sacred Scriptures) and the living Magisterium of the Church which comes from the Holy Spirit indweling the Mystical Body of Christ, i.e. the Church.

So, you have been on the right track, Mustaphile. Just hang out with us on OBOB, prayerfully read the Catechism and praise God Who will lead you. He Who began a good work in you will be Faithful to complete it!

 

[Mustaphile]

Don't think we're going to let you leave that quickly, there sir! And while I don't know you, I wouldn't be too quick to categorize yourself as a modernist. I've been wondering this, and if you don't mind sharing, what specifically do you see as being in need of reform? Or what do you envision your role being in the Church?

This thread was about me seeing a glimmer of hope in a mechanism for reform which came from the laity. A greater involvemen the laity of the church in the face of the church that is presented to the world and the programs of outreach that addresses a more diverse range of the population. At my local parish, there was nothing for me to get involved in during the week. They might have had a youth group, I don't know, but for someone my age there was nothing organised for me to come together with other parish members to have some medium of social cohesion and community. A synthesis in the relationship between the laity and the hierarchy of the Church might give people greater input into how they would like to address local concerns. I think by some of the definitions outlined under Modernism I fall into those categories. I don't think the charge of Modernism is a fair one. Seeking to modernise the church seems to me to be a good thing and I would seek that role in the Church. I think it will bring a dynamic to the Church that is missing now. Discussion is the key to bringing these issues to the fore.

I'll take one issue that is spoken of at a website here.
The Culture of Conversation.

Is this not worthy of discussion? Are these people being modernist for suggesting such a thing?

I find some affinity with what is being stated on this website.

 

[Mustaphile]

Anyway, I must depart. I have no real set agenda for reform. It was the knowledge of a reform process that was based on fundamental principles of the Church that excited me. I was hoping to explore the role of Sensa Fidelium in that context, so as to have a basis for a reform process that comes from the laity, that was not in contradiction to the teachings of the Church. I can see now that it's not a popularly held opinion.

 

[Michelina]

Modernism, the heresy, has nothing to do with 'modernization' in the noormal sense of the term

As to modernizing the Church, that is what Vat II wanted to do: change the way we communicate our faith. And the Council practically begs the laity to become involved in everything the Church does. But the Council did not change the Faith nor the nature of the Church in her Magisterial and Pastoral Offices. The Church must remain faithful to the constitution she was given by Her Founder. Our American inclination to democratize everything we get involved in does not authorize us to do so. The Holy See warned about this tendency more than a hundred years ago. American Caholics said: who? us? But this tendency continues to rear its ugly head every so many years.

With the excuse of the corruption that spread into the Church, promoted by those who effectively hijacked the mandate of the Council, certain groups -using the scandals- are promoting false ideas about the pastoring of the Church and her Teaching Office. The Church is not a democracy, but they would like to make it one.

If you'll study these groups and their leaders, you'll see certain other little items on the agenda (down the line), like Married Priests, Women Priestesses, Re-Marriage for Divorced Catholics, Situational Morality, etc.

The Vatican's insistence on the Universal Vocation to Sanctity isn't much emphasized.

 

[Carrye]

If you're just looking at the question of the laity in the Church, take a look at a couple of the documents that came out of Vatican II.

Lumen Gentium (Light of the Nations)

Apostolicam Actuositatem (Apostolate of the Laity)

 

[Michelina]

Church Differs in Structure From Civil Society, Says Pope

VATICAN CITY, DEC. 5, 2004 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II reminded bishops and Catholics of the United States that the Church does not have the same categories and structures as civil society.

For the Pope, the key to genuine cooperation between the laity and their pastors, particularly the bishops, is in the word "communion."

"An appreciation of the distinct gifts and apostolate of the laity will naturally lead to a strengthened commitment to fostering among the laity a sense of shared responsibility for the life and mission of the Church," John Paul II said.

"In stressing the need for a theology and spirituality of communion and mission for the renewal of ecclesial life, I have pointed to the importance of making our own the ancient pastoral wisdom which, without prejudice to their authority, encouraged pastors to listen more widely to the People of God," he said, recalling the proposal in No. 45 of his apostolic letter "Novo Millennio Ineunte."

"Certainly this will involve a conscious effort on the part of each bishop to develop, within his particular Church, structures of communion and participation which make it possible, without prejudice to his personal responsibility for decisions he is called to make by virtue of his apostolic authority, to listen to the Spirit who lives and speaks in the faithful," the Pope said.

"More importantly, it calls for the cultivation, in every aspect of ecclesial life, of a spirit of communion grounded in the supernatural 'sensus fidei' and the rich variety of charisms and missions which the Holy Spirit pours out upon the whole body of the baptized in order to build them up in unity and fidelity to the word of God," the Holy Father continued.

"An understanding of cooperation and shared responsibility which is firmly rooted in the principles of a sound ecclesiology," he added, "will ensure a genuine and fruitful collaboration between the Church's pastors and the lay faithful, without the danger of distorting this relationship by the uncritical importation of categories and structures drawn from secular life."

 

[Michelina]

Anyway, I must depart. I have no real set agenda for reform. It was the knowledge of a reform process that was based on fundamental principles of the Church that excited me. I was hoping to explore the role of Sensus Fidelium in that context, so as to have a basis for a reform process that comes from the laity, that was not in contradiction to the teachings of the Church. I can see now that it's not a popularly held opinion.

It's not about opinions, brother Mustaphile. But if it were, they would have to be informed opinions.

See the post above this one.

 

[Mustaphile]

See the post above this one.

I thought I best post this to show that I have taken note of your post. I'll be absent from the thread though, in contemplation of the matter, and of course, becoming involved in other matters. I appreciate the time you have taken in addressing my questions, Michelina. Many thanks. I have much to consider.