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Sending atheists to Hell is Evil

yeshuaslavejeff

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I'm an atheist, and according to the bible I am going to Hell.
Why would God torture me for all eternity for something I have no control over?
I learned what I learned. I was raised the way I was raised. When I was young, I opened my heart to God, but he couldn't be bothered showing up.
I don't believe in God. That's the way it is. I could lie and say I do, but God is all knowing, so he would know I don't believe.
In the end, God is responsible for the fact that I don't believe.
Torturing me for eternity, because of something He failed to do, is Evil.

so, if you don't want to be saved, don't worry. no one, not even G-d can save you.

you don't understand eternity, or hell, or "something you have not control over" yet,
so don't be too ready to give up.
you learned what you learned, your were raised the way your were raised,
and (probably) no one told you the truth. (even up to today)
the Creator is still the Creator,
and won't listen to your excuses. He sent His Son Yahshua to live as a human, to die as a criminal hung on a living tree, to be crucified,
so that men everywhere may have a chance to believe in Him and be Redeemed in Him by His sacrifice.

neither you, nor anyone else, can be forced to believe in Him. (and the way the churches are the last thousand years, it's not a surprise many don't believe in Him until they find out outside the church that G-D really is true (unlike men) and G-D really and perfectly loves them (unlike men) ) ....

so, choose today, while it is still today, whom you will serve - sin and death, or Yhvh the Creator of all Life , by grace and faith in Yahshua.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I didn't ask you about your beliefs. I asked why you believe you're not responsible for your actions. Your actions, not your beliefs.

Interesting question. My actions are driven by my beliefs.

If God exists, and created me in his image, then my beliefs are due to the brain he gave me. If he gave me a improperly functioning brain that won't believe in him, there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

No. You said you "opened your heart to God". I asked you what "opened your heart to God" means.

I sincerely prayed to God to reveal himself. He didn't.


You've sinned, just like the rest of us.

True that.

I see. Do you have a conscience? Does your conscience tell you when you've done something wrong?

AFAIK

... I asked you to define evil, tell us why you believe evil is bad, and tell us what you believe our response to evil should be.

No thank you. I'm sure we can agree to the common usage of the word "evil", and that it is bad.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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so, if you don't want to be saved, don't worry. no one, not even G-d can save you.

If God exists, obviously I want to be saved.

Sheesh, do you really think I want God to torture me for all eternity?

you don't understand eternity, or hell, or "something you have not control over" yet,
so don't be too ready to give up.
you learned what you learned, your were raised the way your were raised,
and (probably) no one told you the truth. (even up to today)
the Creator is still the Creator,
and won't listen to your excuses.

I'm not making any excuses, I'm stating a fact: If God exists, and created me in his image, then he gave me a brain the is not functioning properly in regards to belief in Him.

That's like blaming me because there was a tornado in Oklahoma.


He sent His Son Yahshua to live as a human, to die as a criminal hung on a living tree, to be crucified,
so that men everywhere may have a chance to believe in Him and be Redeemed in Him by His sacrifice.

Interesting choice, as this story is something that has made me an unbeliever.

You say sacrifice, but what sacrifice?

God can be everywhere at once, so he put part of himself into a human body for a couple of decades. Then he got nailed to a cross for three days. I assume he isn't a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], so he would have turned his pain receptors off, and enjoyed the view.

How are three days enjoying the view a sacrifice for an eternal being? It makes no sense.

neither you, nor anyone else, can be forced to believe in Him. (and the way the churches are the last thousand years, it's not a surprise many don't believe in Him until they find out outside the church that G-D really is true (unlike men) and G-D really and perfectly loves them (unlike men) ) ....

I don't want to be forced to believe in him. I simply want him to reveal himself to me as he has done for so many others on this forum.

so, choose today, while it is still today, whom you will serve - sin and death, or Yhvh the Creator of all Life , by grace and faith in Yahshua.

How can I make myself believe something that my brain, the brain he gave me, won't believe in? That makes no sense.

The brain God gave me requires that God reveal himself to me.
 
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South Bound

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Interesting question. My actions are driven by my beliefs.

I see. Since you admit that you sin, wouldn't that mean that your sin is driven by your sinful beliefs?

If God exists, and created me in his image, then my beliefs are due to the brain he gave me.

Actually, beliefs are not hard wired, but are acquired over time by the acquisition of experiences and information.

I sincerely prayed to God to reveal himself. He didn't.

You said you "opened your heart to God". I'm asking you what "opened your heart to God" mean.

You also said you were a Christian as a child. How could you have been a Christian if you now say that God did not reveal Himself to you?

True that.

So, if you acknowledge that you've sinned, why do you believe God should give you a pass for your sin?


If you acknowledge that you have a conscience that tells you when you've done something wrong, then the Bible says you know enough to be morally culpable before God.

No thank you. I'm sure we can agree to the common usage of the word "evil", and that it is bad.

You're the one who brought up "evil". If you're going to use our terminology and concepts, don't you think you should at least know what they mean?
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Why do you claim you have no control over your actions?
I don't mean to speak for the OP but I think he means he has no control over his disbelief.

There's gotta be something you don't believe to be true.... Let's say its leprechauns. Can you make yourself truly believe they are real? I don't think you'd have a choice. Somethings just aren't convincing.

Atheist apply this to gods, including yours. I can't make myself believe that Christ is the Son of God and that he died for my sins because I first, don't believe the God of the bible exists and I don't believe the claims that I am a sinner in need of salvation.

I don't have a choice in any of this. Christians and their claims are unconvincing.

Which means...what, exactly?
I ask myself the same question when I hear Christians say this.

Christians seem to like treating the heart as if it's something more than just a pump. Which is an example of the "old-world" type thinking that is common in Christianity. It comes from ignorance as to how the body and mind works.

What Christians usually call "the heart", I refer to as the "mind." That is what holds the essence of a person. Not the heart.

God isn't going to send you to Hell for what He failed to do, but for what you have willingly and repeatedly done.
Again, disbelief is not a choice. I can't make myself believe God is real just like I can't make myself believe Santa is real. Or leprechauns. Or unicorns. These are fictional beings and creatures and they will remain as such until I'm given more evidence to the contrary.

Define evil, tell us why you believe evil is bad, and tell us what you believe our response to evil should be.
Evil is just another one of those "old-world" ideas that has no basis in reality and no objective evidence to suggest its real. There's things I find good and things I think are bad, but that is entirely subjective and dependent on culture and upbringing.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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these are answered basically in reverse order below.: >
If God exists, obviously I want to be saved.
Sheesh, do you really think I want God to torture me for all eternity?
I'm not making any excuses, I'm stating a fact: If God exists, and created me in his image, then he gave me a brain the is not functioning properly in regards to belief in Him.
That's like blaming me because there was a tornado in Oklahoma.
Interesting choice, as this story is something that has made me an unbeliever.
You say sacrifice, but what sacrifice?
God can be everywhere at once, so he put part of himself into a human body for a couple of decades. Then he got nailed to a cross for three days. I assume he isn't a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], so he would have turned his pain receptors off, and enjoyed the view.
How are three days enjoying the view a sacrifice for an eternal being? It makes no sense.
I don't want to be forced to believe in him. I simply want him to reveal himself to me as he has done for so many others on this forum.
How can I make myself believe something that my brain, the brain he gave me, won't believe in? That makes no sense.
The brain God gave me requires that God reveal himself to me.
no, it doesn't. you can't. he hasn't, other than through His Word(which you haven't even read. He didn't. He wasn't. Not for a couple decades - forever to be.
Read the Scripture asking Yhvh to show you (His Sacrifice) - no man can show you, no one on the forum can either. The story that it made you an unbeliever is a lie- the story you heard, or your choice; it remains your choice whether on true information that you don't have yet, or false information that you believed so far.
no body has a brain that functions 'properly' as you put it - all are slaves, including you, of satan and sin until and if they are Redeemed. all men are under a death sentence and are slaves of satan. (your choice to remain a slave of satan, or be saved)
you don't even understand "eternity". if you accept the english 'western' version,(of eternity, of heaven, or more important truth) you'll never know the truth and never be free.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I see. Since you admit that you sin, wouldn't that mean that your sin is driven by your sinful beliefs?



Actually, beliefs are not hard wired, but are acquired over time by the acquisition of experiences and information.

Exactly, and my brain, the one god gave me, doesn't believe in him. What am I supposed to do about that?

You said you "opened your heart to God". I'm asking you what "opened your heart to God" mean.

You also said you were a Christian as a child. How could you have been a Christian if you now say that God did not reveal Himself to you?

Because I was a child, I believed what my Christian parents told me: That God existed. I knew God revealed himself to people, so I sincerely asked God to reveal himself to me.


So, if you acknowledge that you've sinned, why do you believe God should give you a pass for your sin?

I don't, but eternal torture is ridiculous.

Maybe this will help you understand:

Let's say my five year old son steals a cookie. He has committed a sin. As punishment, I chain him up in the basement, hook him up to an IV to keep him alive, and torture him to the best of my abilities for the next six decades. Would you say I am a loving parent? Would you say I am a just parent? Would you say I am a merciful parent? No, you would say I am a monster.

What God proposes to do is infinitely worse because the torture will last for an infinite time.

If you acknowledge that you have a conscience that tells you when you've done something wrong, then the Bible says you know enough to be morally culpable before God.

See above.

You're the one who brought up "evil". If you're going to use our terminology and concepts, don't you think you should at least know what they mean?

I'm sure a discussion on what exactly evil is, and what we should do about it, could go on for the rest of my life. I'm not interested in doing that. How about we use a standard dictionary definition.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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I find your beginning point is very revealing.

If God sends you to Hell for refusing to accept His offer of Salvation and submitting to God's rule, then God is Evil. The underlying concept here is YOU are superior to God in your moral standing.

You said in post #23:
I don't want to be forced to believe in him. I simply want him to reveal himself to me as he has done for so many others on this forum.
No, you do NOT want God to reveal Himself to you as He has done to - me, for instance. Because He already has revealed Himself to you, just like to me and '...many others on this forum'. What you want is a special demonstration on your terms.

If God doesn't kowtow to your demands, He is 'evil'.

As long as you are the most important thing in the Universe or Eternity, it makes perfect sense.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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these are answered basically in reverse order below.: >

no, it doesn't. you can't. he hasn't, other than through His Word(which you haven't even read. He didn't. He wasn't. Not for a couple decades - forever to be.

Actually, I have read the bible. Cover to cover.

And the brain God gave me found it absolutely disgusting.

Read the Scripture asking Yhvh to show you (His Sacrifice) - no man can show you, no one on the forum can either.

I have. He didn't.

The story that it made you an unbeliever is a lie- the story you heard, or your choice; it remains your choice whether on true information that you don't have yet, or false information that you believed so far.

The bible is a lie?

OK, so where do I get my information about God if he won't reveal himself to me?

no body has a brain that functions 'properly' as you put it - all are slaves, including you, of satan and sin until and if they are Redeemed. all men are under a death sentence and are slaves of satan. (your choice to remain a slave of satan, or be saved)

How can I believe something that my brain, the brain God gave me, won't believe? You can't force yourself to sincerely believe something.

you don't even understand "eternity". if you accept the english 'western' version,(of eternity, of heaven, or more important truth) you'll never know the truth and never be free.

Considering the bible is the word of God, and God uses the word "eternal", and God knows how I will interpret "eternal", I think I'll go with God's word rather than yours. No offence intended.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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I honestly don't know if he exists or not.
Neither do I. That doesn't change the fact that I am unconvinced that Christians have some deeper understanding of reality or or some universal truth that most of us are missing. That's why I remain atheist.

I do think that if he does exist, he is being very unfair in regards to torturing me for all eternity for something I am faultless in. Actually I think it is evil.
I would have to agree. If the God of the bible is real, He's not someone I'd like to ever meet. Maybe His son, but definitely not OT God.
I doubt He'd be very happy with what I have to say about His actions in some of the stories about Him.

The bible says God is waiting to send me to hell.
The bible says a lot of things I don't take very seriously.

I usually start with the belief that God would be very foolish to use something like the bible to communicate His message to us.

I find it extremely unlikely that the Creator of the Universe would whisper into some ancient man's ear and tell him to write down what He says and pass it on when the central message is regarding life and death and eternity. Things we don't even understand.

Why not just talk to us? Why all the mystery? Seriously, if God were upfront and real and undeniable, I'd have no problem calling myself a Christian and being a devout follower. For some reason, He left it all up to His followers. I'm sorry I can't take them very seriously.... They're only people.

And many Christians on this site have a close personal relationship with God. And they say the bible is the word of God.

Do they have a relationship with God and he is lying to them? Or are they delusional? Or....
Personally, I think it's a very complicated mixture of human psychology and self delusion that's at play when it comes to religious beliefs. A lot of it seems to be grounded in either, superstition about death or just plain old, indoctrination from a very early age.

But I don't hold that against anyone. I too am terrified if death. I don't believe in some magical, happy kingdom in the sky though. That's for sure.
 
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Your first sentence implies the bible isn't the word of God, just "wood pulp and ink marks". Yet the next sentence implies the bible contains the word of God at the beginning.

What mechanism do you use to differentiate between what is the word of god, and what isn't?

I differentiate by the map/territory relationship. The map is a only a simulacrum of reality, it is not the reality. The bible is a reduced collection of man's inspired experiences of God. I have found it to contain a great deal of truth on multiple levels of reading, and thus has been used and skewed by power structures seeking to receive the praise, authority and glory (from Man) that is God's alone. The enter universe/Kingdom of Heaven within and all around us is the territory.

The bible is also not the only map. In fact a great many different maps in different metaphoric languages (tongues) can be drawn when you know the few basic universal field/membrane/being relationships (Elohim). It's a visual, spatial and kinesthetic language at it's fundamental level. It is not a linear string of English letters groups and spaces.

As per the bible (and the Egyptian "book of the dead") "The Word was in the beginning with God and the Word was "God" (His own Name). The Almighty One speaking His own Name is a self reproductive act. The Son is born by the movement (vibration, lofted hovering) of the Spirit of God from an infinite virgin ocean (Mari, Body of God) in the center of a cavitated void space. See "sono-luminescence" for the physical mechanism in action: "Watery chaos", then sonic vibration, then void space and light. How many creation stories follow that basic formula? All the major ones and most the others, especially the old ones. The story of the Tzimtzum goes into even further detail describing an infinite light that a shadow/image of God is carved out of by 10 degrees of removal/emanations (Elohim)

That is the Word made flesh. The Son formed in the flesh of The Almighty God, wrapped in the shroud of the Elohim, "entombed" in a universe and "awaiting resurrection" (fulfillment/end of the universe, end of relative space time and matter). This is the soul that incarnated billions of years later as "Jesus" (Yeshua meaning - God the Father saves). His established eternal physcial body/being, as one of the Elohim, remians in the center of the universe as it's singular gravitational ruler. There is no limit to His soul projective abilities in time or space. He is the individuation of God as a singular being within a universe. The "embryonic" self reproduction of the Infinite God outside of the universe. The universe is a womb of God in the body of an infinite ocean. A "Mari". There will be a birth..and this universe will close.

Thus when God spoke the Word that started the beginning of all creations, an abridged collection of 66 books in several different simultaneous English translations did not suddenly appear of total nothing.

Do I believe the bible to contain truths of God and existence written by directly inspired men and woman? Yes. On multiple levels that only reveal themselves to the level of the reader. It has also been through the hands of many a devious agenda and establishment so I read it through several simultaneous perspectives and a paper shredder. I cut it to pieces and distill the essence and compare it with what i distill out of other books that receive the same treatment. I aim to be a workman unashamed before God, rightly dividing (cutting straightly) the word of Truth. Words written by man receive no less of a treatment.

From my own works of faith (substance and evidence of things not seen) I have found that if the story of Jesus is 100% historically accurate, it is a re-occurrence of universal relationships. And like-wise if the story of Jesus is 100% allegorical, it is a retelling of universal relationships. Ironically if it is not "true" (historical) it is actually even more true because it is describing something not limited to a tiny span of time, of a single culture, on a single planet in a universe of innumerable trillions of galaxies. It is then truly universal. It is no less universal if He actually came here to demonstrate the path of Mastery, tend his flocks and do some house cleaning.



There is direct conscious communion with the Word of God, within you and all around you apart from all books. The Holy Spirit is with you now and permeates all the space of the universe, there is no where it is not, not even sheol. These things are written into and as the very fabric of existence. Any person or establishment that tells you, you have to go through them to receive communion with the Holy Spirit and that you cannot have communion on your own is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

It is the source of all inspiration for all sentient beings in the universe and all truly enlightened prophets who went out into the wilderness, fasted, prayed, and wrestled with God and would not let go until blessed. I bow in immense gratitude to all those who have gone before me, made my journey easier and faster, who shoulders I now stand on. What will I do when they return for what is theirs? Rejoice.

When I was young and inexperienced, I needed a map. When I have experienced enough of the territory and am blessed by the Maker, I will no longer need maps. The Word will be carved out within me and I will carry it forever. That is what Jesus was the demonstration of. And his prayer was for us to be like him: One in relationship to the Father: John 17:21 20"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;…

If that is the prayer of the Individuate God (Son) to the Infinite God (Father), what can possibly stop it's fulfillment? The Word of God is like a mighty Oak Tree and the incarnating soul is like an acorn: There is a rebirth by water (truth) (the sprouting beyond the ego shell) and a rebirth by spirit/light (growth above the surface of the soil of creation and witnessing of all the victorious ones who have gone before and hold dominion over the darkness below). They have earned their crown. We are here to grow ours. The seed is planted before me and Apollos waters but it is God that causes (and is) the growth.

Mark 8:24
23Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, "Do you see anything?" 24And he looked up and said, "I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around."

Prov 11:30 30The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who is wise wins souls.

Psalms 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow strong like a cedar in Lebanon.


Peace and growth be with you!
 
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ThinkForYourself

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I find your beginning point is very revealing.

If God sends you to Hell for refusing to accept His offer of Salvation and submitting to God's rule, then God is Evil.

How can I accept an offer of Salvation from a being I don't believe exists?

The underlying concept here is YOU are superior to God in your moral standing.

I agree that I would never torture someone for all eternity simply because of they didn't believe in something. If you feel that makes me superior to God, then so be it.

You said in post #23: No, you do NOT want God to reveal Himself to you as He has done to - me, for instance. Because He already has revealed Himself to you, just like to me and '...many others on this forum'. What you want is a special demonstration on your terms.

I don't want a special demonstration. If he exists, I want him to reveal himself.

If God doesn't kowtow to your demands, He is 'evil'.

Kowtow to my demands? That makes no sense whatsoever.

If He won't reveal himself to me, and has given me a brain that won't accept that He exists, then yes, it would be Evil to torture me for all eternity.

Don't you think that is rather obvious?

As long as you are the most important thing in the Universe or Eternity, it makes perfect sense.

Um, I don't think I'm the most important thing in the Universe.

Just because I don't believe in your God is no reason to make personal attacks.
 
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quatona

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I'm an atheist, and according to the bible I am going to Hell.

Why would God torture me for all eternity for something I have no control over?

I learned what I learned. I was raised the way I was raised. When I was young, I opened my heart to God, but he couldn't be bothered showing up.

I don't believe in God. That's the way it is. I could lie and say I do, but God is all knowing, so he would know I don't believe.

In the end, God is responsible for the fact that I don't believe.

Torturing me for eternity, because of something He failed to do, is Evil.
So a entity of which you are convinced is fictional would be evil if it existed. What´s the problem?
 
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lesliedellow

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By that time, God will have been revealed.

That last part is better translated: "Then they will go away into aion long pruning chastisement, but the righteous in to the aion of Life.

Except that the verse uses the adjective aionios, and that very same adjective is used in the very same verse, to mean " eternal life." It is also used elsewhere in the New Testament, as well as the Septuagint, to mean "everlasting God."

Revisionism rules. OK.
 
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South Bound

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ThinkForYourself said:
Let's say my five year old son steals a cookie. He has committed a sin. As punishment, I chain him up in the basement, hook him up to an IV to keep him alive, and torture him to the best of my abilities for the next six decades. Would you say I am a loving parent? Would you say I am a just parent? Would you say I am a merciful parent? No, you would say I am a monster.

Actually, I'd say that you've made a categorization fallacy error, because parents are not God.
 
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quatona

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Actually, I'd say that you've made a categorization fallacy error, because parents are not God.
Indeed, but looking at the differences between a parent and the God of the Christian concept (you know, the omni-thing), that wouldn´t really help your case. More like the opposite.
 
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I'm an atheist, and according to the bible I am going to Hell.

Why would God torture me for all eternity for something I have no control over?

I learned what I learned. I was raised the way I was raised. When I was young, I opened my heart to God, but he couldn't be bothered showing up.

I don't believe in God. That's the way it is. I could lie and say I do, but God is all knowing, so he would know I don't believe.

In the end, God is responsible for the fact that I don't believe.

Torturing me for eternity, because of something He failed to do, is Evil.
I've seen a lot of NDE's of atheists who met Him just before they died. One guy met God and said the sinner's prayer in his last moments because his mother prayed. Not praying for atheists and not stretching out for miracles like legs growing out is evil.
 
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Smidlee

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I'm an atheist, and according to the bible I am going to Hell.
No where in scripture does it state you are going to hell because you label yourself an atheist.
Why would God torture me for all eternity for something I have no control over?
According to scripture He won't.
I learned what I learned. I was raised the way I was raised. When I was young, I opened my heart to God, but he couldn't be bothered showing up.

I don't believe in God. That's the way it is. I could lie and say I do, but God is all knowing, so he would know I don't believe.

In the end, God is responsible for the fact that I don't believe.

Torturing me for eternity, because of something He failed to do, is Evil.
This sound like a case between you and God. There nothing I could say about this. I'm sure if you are as righteous as you say you won't be judged.

Mark 2:17 : When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick, I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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No where in scripture does it state you are going to hell because you label yourself an atheist.

Yes it does:

Revelation 21:8 "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


This sound like a case between you and God. There nothing I could say about this. I'm sure if you are as righteous as you say you won't be judged.

I'm an unbeliever, so I could be the most moral person in the world, but God will still torture me eternally for the crime of not believing. Does that sound moral to you?
 
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