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[SemperReformanda]

Thousands of Iraqis in Baghdad have taken to the streets to celebrate their newfound freedom. They're demolishing Saddamite statues and cheering. It's been compared to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Here's a link:http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_769001.html

I can imagine the horror that the anti-war people must feel right now. The inappropriatness of the Iraqi people's jubilation. It must be post-traumatic stress after the brutal American assault that's making them act so strangely. Or, perhaps they have Stockholm Syndrome, and have taken to identifying with their murderous invading captors. That must be why they're so happy.

This seems to be a very good time for all the anti-war people to send emails to the Iraqi people apologizing for their liberation. Perhaps you could explain that it was a terrible mistake and an illegitimate war, and that they should most certainly stop celebrating an immoral war. Better yet, they should find the nearest Ba'ath official and report themselves.

You can send an email to the Iraqi people at the following address: MoralCretin@suckstobeyou.com

 

[wildernesse]

Oh yes, anti-war people are against a free Iraq. What a load of baloney.

I'm against war. It is horrible. I don't ever want to be bombed or live surrounded by mines or have memories of my parents' bodies blown apart with the rest of my life. I have no wish to bring this upon other people.

There are cases when war is necessary: in self-defense. When atrocities are being committed, a police action is necessary. But there should be a consensus and a plan. We shouldn't pick and choose who gets to live in freedom and who doesn't--and we shouldn't turn our noses up at those who point out that we don't play by the rules or that some people in our own country don't enjoy the freedom promised them.

While I'm excited and happy for the Iraqi people, it remains to be seen that the jubilation will give way to a democratic society under the rule of law. What is this liberation worth if it settles back into chaos--ready for the next Saddam? The BBC has pics up of people beating their former tormenters in the street. That's not justice.

I'll wait to praise this war, if you don't mind--wait until it is finished to admit that war is a good thing and our intervention is better than the alternative.

--tibac

 

[D. Scarlatti]

I wouldn't stand too close to that strawman with a lit cigar.

 

[SemperReformanda]

wildernesse-

None of which in any way mitigates the fact that if you were against the war you were actively opposing the liberation these people are celebrating.

If you really believe that the new government will also have prisons for children who don't join the youth orgs, will also drain salt marshes to ethnically cleanse Shiites, will also use poison gas against Kurds, will feti****ically pursue WMD and will launch two wars of aggression against its neighbors resulting in over 1.5 million deaths, then bully for you. The Bible has a lot of nice things to say for childlike faith.

 

[SemperReformanda]

"Oh yes, anti-war people are against a free Iraq. What a load of baloney."

Oh no, they're VERY for it. They can talk all day about high-sounding things like freedom and human rights. It's only when the time comes to do anything tangible to turn these tangerine dreams into reality that we can't find them.

 

[wildernesse]

Maybe I was actively opposing this aspect of the war. Ever think about that? If your last statement is true, then your support of the war means that you are glad that civilians were killed by stray bombs and that cities are cut off from water and medical supplies.

--tibac

 

[wildernesse]

Today at 04:17 PM SemperReformanda said this in Post #4

wildernesse-

None of which in any way mitigates the fact that if you were against the war you were actively opposing the liberation these people are celebrating.

If you really believe that the new government will also have prisons for children who don't join the youth orgs, will also drain salt marshes to ethnically cleanse Shiites, will also use poison gas against Kurds, will feti****ically pursue WMD and will launch two wars of aggression against its neighbors resulting in over 1.5 million deaths, then bully for you. The Bible has a lot of nice things to say for childlike faith.

Our US supported new government in Afghanistan seems to be doing just great, I recall! No, WAIT! They only control one city and tribal warlords are still violently vying for power. I don't see a freedom-loving democracy sprouting over there, complete with the rule of law!

Who has some child-like faith in the US's ability to do what it says? I don't think it's me.

--tibac

 

[SemperReformanda]

Our US supported new government in Afghanistan seems to be doing just great, I recall! No, WAIT! They only control one city and tribal warlords are still violently vying for power. I don't see a freedom-loving democracy sprouting over there, complete with the rule of law! Who has some child-like faith in the US's ability to do what it says? I don't think it's me.

That's right! I remember that press conference, where they promised to install a functioning Jeffersonian democracy in 6 months or less. Oh wait, no I don't.

And you're right, the status quo ante was MUCH better in Afghanistan. Girls not allowed to go to school, packs of religious thugs patrolling the street, people killed summarily for imagined offenses against Islam, music outlawed, etc. Oh, and did I mention? Al-Quaeda operating openly and bin Laden literally working as a Defense Minister. I can definitely understand your nostalgia.

The new president is working on a central army. The transition to a central government is happening, though of course slower than we would like. But the people are objectively much freer than they were before. Perhaps you would prefer living under the previous regime. I'd take this one.

If your last statement is true, then your support of the war means that you are glad that civilians were killed by stray bombs and that cities are cut off from water and medical supplies.

I accept these casualties as a necessary aspect of warfare. Thank God people like me were running things during WWII. If we used your interesting moral calculus Hitler would still be in power and the Jews would have been exterminated. We carpet-bombed countries in order to free Europe. And before you try some "self-defense" argument, Hitler in no way threatened our borders. Of course, there we were saving white people, right? For many it seems like it isn't worth liberating people when it's just uncivilized brown people who can't possibly run a democracy or maintain the rule of law. Likesay, Afghanis.

 

[TheBear]

Let's just use the extremely small amount of unfortunate civilian casualties, as a trump card to overturn the massive success of this operation. This is the second thread wildernesse has used this same story & picture.

Hang on to it, wildernesse. Hold that image near and dear to your heart, and don't bother looking at the jubillant relief of the overwhelming masses of Iraqi citizens.

The sad fact is, there are always tragic stories in war. And, my heart does go out to those who have lost their lives or were seriously injured, on both sides of this conflict.
However, you cannot ingnore the fact that there has never been a war, with such few civilian casualties, and minimal infrastructural damage, in all of history. Wether the nay-sayers want to admit it or not, this is a huge success.

 

[Blindfaith]

Wether the nay-sayers want to admit it or not, this is a huge success

And that is what kills them.

 

[Doctrine1st]

This is far from over to call it a huge success, perhaps a step in the right direction for the citizens of Iraq, but the next phase, the power grab, establishing rights to the oil, and those within and outside of Iraq who have interest in not seeing a successful democracy in the middle east (especially with the U.S. involved) sorting that mess out will be far more difficult than the war. Also, let's not forget that this whole thing was about the safety of America and liberation was just a bonus. So it's going to take time now to measure the success and the measuring rod is are we better off in regards to terrorism, how long we have to occupy Iraq, and the cost it will bear on us in a bad economy. This is only phase one. But I, a pessimist, have made the decision to give the Prez the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. 

 

[TheBear]

I agree. There is plenty more work to be done. In addition to what you mentioned, immediate tasks include distributing food, water, medicine and other humanitarian supplies to the Iraqi people. There are still pockets of resistance throughout Iraq.

But, today marks a major milestone towards the liberation of the Iraqi people. And, none of the forseen tasks and predicted problems which lie ahead, will minimize what has been accomplished thus far in Iraq.

 

[wildernesse]

Let's just use the extremely small amount of unfortunate civilian casualties, as a trump card to overturn the massive success of this operation. This is the second thread wildernesse has used this same story & picture.

Hang on to it, wildernesse. Hold that image near and dear to your heart, and don't bother looking at the jubillant relief of the overwhelming masses of Iraqi citizens.

The sad fact is, there are always tragic stories in war. And, my heart does go out to those who have lost their lives or were seriously injured, on both sides of this conflict.
However, you cannot ingnore the fact that there has never been a war, with such few civilian casualties, and minimal infrastructural damage, in all of history. Wether the nay-sayers want to admit it or not, this is a huge success.

This BBC article names 600 civilian casualties. That's outside of Iraqi soldiers (who are people too, mostly conscripts who are forced into service). I don't think that's extremely small, even though I'm sure it is historically. Four would be extremely small, and yet too many for me.

I use this story and picture because it knocks me off of my feet with the sadness of what war is. If you are comfortable with war, then you should be comfortable with that picture. That story, and that picture, are what war is. I *will* remember this kid and hold his story near to my heart--because it illustrates to me what happens when we go into war. It's serious, not something to be barged into like we did. And yes, I feel the same way about our own dead soldiers--the teenagers who will never grow up and the parents who will never see their children again. It's gut-wrenching.

The US/Britain fight has been a military success. That should not be a great surprise. The liberation will only be a success if when the foreign troops go home, Iraq is a free and democratic country, ruled by the law. It is much too soon to say that the liberation has been a success.

If we go to to war, it should end with successes--on and off the battlefield. It doesn't bother me that we're winning. I would hate to think that our troops and these civilians died in vain. However, I think that the death and misery that is war should be actively prevented with strong diplomatic action before we get countries that have massively atrocious human rights records that seem to be only alleviated by the horror of war.

--tibac

 

[SemperReformanda]

Doctine 1st-

This is far from over to call it a huge success, perhaps a step in the right direction for the citizens of Iraq, but the next phase, the power grab, establishing rights to the oil, and those within and outside of Iraq who have interest in not seeing a successful democracy in the middle east (especially with the U.S. involved) sorting that mess out will be far more difficult than the war.

I'm not sure if it'll be MORE complicated. This was an incredibly complex operation-- destroying 6 divisions of regulars, perhaps as many as 60,000 irregulars while preserving infrastructure and only losing 81 men to hostilities. Pretty amazing, really. But your basic point is sound. Well-balanced as always.

It will be very easy to win the war and lose the peace. My prayer is that Bush will show the same fortitude in the painful process of rebuilding the economy and re-establishing civilian government that he's shown in the war. The prospects are MUCH healthier here than in Afghanistan, though some people keep trying to make an apples and oranges comparison.

Iraq is very secular, has (by some accounts) the most educated population in the Arab world, has a much more secular population than most in the region, and they have the world's 2nd largest proven oil reserves to finance rebuilding. As opposed to poppy plants for Afghanistan. Further, their infrastructure wasn't demolished by a couple of decads of internecine warfare. While the obstacles are very steep, the foundations for a more open society are there. It won't be a Jeffersonian democracy, but it won't be a genocidal dictatorship either. IMO.

 

[TheBear]

600 out of over 24,000,000 is about .000025% of the population. As I said, an extremely small percentage. Of course, after all is settled down, and the accurate numbers are verified by the IRC and other sources, we will be able to look at the numbers with a bit more confidence.

Good grief!! Some people will do and say anything to avoid facing the reality of things! Get a grip, people. The job position of "Information Minister of Iraq" has been downsized and phased out.

And if you like, wildernesse, I could provide thousands of times more horrifying pics of all the death and destruction, Saddam brought on the Iraqi people. Why aren't you lamenting all those atrocities?

 

[TheBear]

BTW, according to the anti-war group, about 15,000 to 25,000 innocent civilians should be dead by now, as the result of this conflict.

Still want to dig in, and hold firm to those predictions?

 

[SemperReformanda]

wildernesse-

Four would be extremely small, and yet too many for me.

You know the old adage about, "What if everyone in church was like me? What sort of church would it be?"

If everyone in free countries were like you, there wouldn't be any free countries. Four innocent people dying is too many to prevent countless thousands of other innocents from from dying. Individuals with such philosophies have no chance of being free unless made and kept so by others.

" I *will* remember this kid and hold his story near to my heart--because it illustrates to me what happens when we go into war."

And I WILL remember the thousands that were being killed by Saddam and his regime. INcluding the many who were fed into a plastic grinding machine by Saddam's son himself. It's an interesting compassion that focuses on an isolated case rather than the suffering of an entire nation. I guess this is what the post-modern mind looks like--focusing sentimentally on an emotional photo rather than looking rationally at a nationwide human rights nightmare.

It's serious, not something to be barged into like we did.

Yeah, 12 years of threats and sanctions, followed by half a year of crawling toward war and wrangling in the UN. It's amazing we didn't break our necks rushing headlong like that.

 

[SemperReformanda]

And yes, I feel the same way about our own dead soldiers

I served for eight years. I could tell you exactly what our opinion was of this sort of condescending compassion. But this is a family-friendly board.

The liberation will only be a success if when the foreign troops go home, Iraq is a free and democratic country, ruled by the law.

I would say that's an arbitrary statement. Politics is the art of the possible. There are degrees of success. Total success would look just as you've described. But if the people are able to live without fear of arbitrary death sentences, a reasonably representative system is put in place, and the new government is no longer harboring terrorists and pursuing WMD, I would think that would appear somewhere on the old spectrum of success...

I think that the death and misery that is war should be actively prevented with strong diplomatic action before we get countries that have massively atrocious human rights records that seem to be only alleviated by the horror of war.

In an ideal world this would be true. But diplomacy is no panacea. There are those who will NEVER respect diplomacy and will see it as a sign of weakness. Hitler's demands for Czechoslovakia spring to mind.

I think in the post-Cold War world we have a wonderful opportunity to help human rights and open societies flourish in the world. My belief is that regime change will be coming from within in Iran in the next few years. Whenever we can we should encourage such developments.

Iraq was a unique situation. 12 years. 17 resolutions. 2 wars of aggression. WMD production. Genocide. War was a sad but necessary decision.

 

[Brimshack]

…and of course we all know the real pay-off to ending the attrocities is that you get to make fun of lefties some more eh, Semper? Of course if you were consistent you would also say that all those conservatives who didn't back intervention in Hati, Bosnia, or Mogadishu deserve the same critcism. I guess they must have wanted people to suffer in those countries after all.

(Now come the part where you dismiss my post without making an effort to address the argument. Enjoy…)

 

[D. Scarlatti]

SemperReformanda said
I could tell you exactly what our opinion was of this sort of condescending compassion. But this is a family-friendly board.

This is how you respond to what appears to be a heartfelt expression of remorse for American war dead?
Wow man, that's pretty cold.