Seminary - Life as a professor?

[blackhole]

I'm considering pursuing a graduate education in theology, primarily because I'm socially and intellectually isolated. I love dealing with facts and ideas, and I'm very critically minded. But most church people are bigots (technical usage, not a slur), sinfully judgmental and intolerant of ideas that differ from theirs. They also complain if you try to share new information.

I haven't been able to find this in any of the churches I've been to (my current church is very close, but they don't socialize). They want faithful ideologues as mouthpieces that challenge nothing and think only what they're told to.

I'm expecting that my best shot of forming fulfilling relationships is by being involved with a seminary. My fear however, is that all of the seminaries except liberal ones (e.g. those which allow women to be pastors) will be just as bigoted.

So then, tell me about Christian academia: would I find the kinds of relationships I'm looking for, at a conservative seminary? Chiefly, a school that will accept my critical mind?

 

[Paidiske]

It looks to me as if you're conflating a couple of different things there. One is the opportunity to have a rich intellectual life, and the other is a high quality of relationships. Those things aren't necessarily going to go hand in hand.

Is it that you want a place in which you can have a rich intellectual life in the context of fulfilling relationships? As in, within those relationships you'll be able to have vibrant and robust discussions etc? Because I'm not sure that seminary is necessarily going to do that.

What I mean by that is, as a seminary academic you have two main sets of relationships; with your colleagues and with your students. From my observation, whether or not the collegial relationships are fulfilling is by no means guaranteed by it being a seminary setting; I've observed that seminaries can be just as dysfunctional as workplaces as anywhere else.

On the other hand, there are your students... with some of whom you might have warm, even close, relationships; but there is always going to be the boundary of you being their lecturer/supervisor/whatever.

So - an environment which is intellectually stimulating, probably; the relationships side, not a given. Some are good and some not. (Besides having been to seminary I have friends and colleagues who are seminary lecturers, which is what I base these comments on).

I actually wonder whether you might do better to study at a graduate level in a secular setting; apart from anything else, seminaries tend to be much smaller and more closed communities than secular learning institutions which educate in a broad variety of disciplines. And there would still normally be vibrant Christian groups to which you could attach yourself.

 

[blackhole]

It looks to me as if you're conflating a couple of different things there. One is the opportunity to have a rich intellectual life, and the other is a high quality of relationships. Those things aren't necessarily going to go hand in hand.

Is it that you want a place in which you can have a rich intellectual life in the context of fulfilling relationships? As in, within those relationships you'll be able to have vibrant and robust discussions etc? Because I'm not sure that seminary is necessarily going to do that.

What I mean by that is, as a seminary academic you have two main sets of relationships; with your colleagues and with your students. From my observation, whether or not the collegial relationships are fulfilling is by no means guaranteed by it being a seminary setting; I've observed that seminaries can be just as dysfunctional as workplaces as anywhere else.

On the other hand, there are your students... with some of whom you might have warm, even close, relationships; but there is always going to be the boundary of you being their lecturer/supervisor/whatever.

So - an environment which is intellectually stimulating, probably; the relationships side, not a given. Some are good and some not. (Besides having been to seminary I have friends and colleagues who are seminary lecturers, which is what I base these comments on).

I actually wonder whether you might do better to study at a graduate level in a secular setting; apart from anything else, seminaries tend to be much smaller and more closed communities than secular learning institutions which educate in a broad variety of disciplines. And there would still normally be vibrant Christian groups to which you could attach yourself.

Yes, I was hoping to have both together - and I assumed I'd find it with other professors. I understand from your post that it's likely this wouldn't happen.

Your idea of teaching at a secular school never occurred to me. I was against the idea, because although secular relationships can be good, the moral divide is too problematic for those to form my primary relationships. But, joining Christian groups on campus? Very interesting. Do you think those groups would likely be mature enough to fulfill what I'm looking for?

Thanks for the input.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, I was hoping to have both together - and I assumed I'd find it with other professors. I understand from your post that it's likely this wouldn't happen.

Well, not necessarily not likely, but not a given.

I have a good friend, for example, dean of a theological college; he's very happy with his collegial relationships where he is now. But the place he taught for twelve years before that, he ended up leaving because those relationships were miserable...

I guess I was just challenging the assumption that just because your intellectual interests were in common, you'd easily become friends!

Your idea of teaching at a secular school never occurred to me. I was against the idea, because although secular relationships can be good, the moral divide is too problematic for those to form my primary relationships. But, joining Christian groups on campus? Very interesting. Do you think those groups would likely be mature enough to fulfill what I'm looking for?

Possibly. Particularly if you found one that catered to mature-aged or postgraduate students; and many Christians do study various areas to do with theology at a postgraduate level through secular faculties of languages, history, ethics and so on.

If nothing else, you'll need to actually get the qualifications first. So it may be worthwhile, while you think about topics and supervisors and which institution to study with, looking hard at what the community life is like as well as the academic side of things, and seeing what appeals.

 

[Radagast]

I'm considering pursuing a graduate education in theology, primarily because I'm socially and intellectually isolated. I love dealing with facts and ideas, and I'm very critically minded. But most church people are bigots (technical usage, not a slur), sinfully judgmental and intolerant of ideas that differ from theirs. They also complain if you try to share new information.

It seems to me that you have some issues to resolve before you try that. If I understand you correctly, you want a job at a conservative seminary, where you plan to teach against the teachings of that seminary. That isn't going to be popular.

You first need to find a denomination where you fit in. Then you can think about roles as a theologian within that community.

 

[blackhole]

It seems to you that you have some issues to resolve before you try that. It seems that you want a job at a conservative seminary, where you plan to teach against the teachings of that seminary. That isn't going to be popular.

You first need to find a denomination where you fit in. Then you can think about roles as a theologian within that community.

No, I'm not speaking of discrepancy in major theological issues. That would be sinless judgmentalism, but I spoke of sinful judgmentalism. For example, if I say that the drinking a little wine isn't a sin (c.f. Paul's writing to Timothy), many conservative churches would reject me. That would be sinful rejection, because that's a doubtful matter (Rom 14). Among conservative churches, I've found this kind of behavior to be the rule rather than the exception.

And if you're suggesting that I should find a denomination in which there are no discrepancies even in doubtful matters, you've set an impossible task. First, it doesn't exist. Second, if it existed: it wouldn't for long. As I grow, my views change.

Note: I also don't mean setting out to directly undermine the seminary's viewpoints (heresy) even in doubtful matters, but I want to be allowed to have a viewpoint of my own.

 

[Radagast]

For example, if I say that the drinking a little wine isn't a sin (c.f. Paul's writing to Timothy), many conservative churches would reject me.

And for that reason, I would discourage you from trying to teach the benefits of alcohol to strict anti-alcohol Baptists (although Presbyterians generally wouldn't mind). Ditto for other debated issues.

Another point is that it's pointless talking about a professorship in theology (which generally requires a doctorate) before you have a basic degree in theology.

 

[blackhole]

Another point is that it's pointless talking about a professorship in theology (which generally requires a doctorate) before you have a basic degree in theology.

Do you always jump before looking where you'll land?

 

[Paidiske]

I must admit I assumed from the way the OP was worded that @blackhole already had an undergraduate degree in theology. If that's not the case, then that's the place to start; you might find you do a few units and realise that that path's not for you at all.

 

[blackhole]

I must admit I assumed from the way the OP was worded that @blackhole already had an undergraduate degree in theology. If that's not the case, then that's the place to start; you might find you do a few units and realise that that path's not for you at all.

I won't be able to take any theology classes until I finish school. I'm triple majoring, and two of my majors are in somewhat similar fields: philosophy and psychology. I've also written two Christian books, so I assume that between those things, I have a decent understanding of what to expect. If you disagree, please explain.

 

[Paidiske]

Hmm. Philosophy and psychology will definitely help you, in theology and pastoral care units.

It's about more than academics, though. I'll see if I can say something helpful about that.

When I went to seminary, I had an undergraduate degree in an unrelated field. So I understood a bit about the academic environment, how to research and write an essay, that sort of stuff. I didn't have any problem with the course content (mostly; of course it had its moments).

But the seminary environment was completely different to what I was used to from secular university. Where I'd once sat in lectures of several hundred students, now I was in an environment where thirty people was a very large class. The dynamics and relationships were very different.

And more than that, the focus was different. Where in secular university the point is to get you to learn a bunch of stuff, in seminary the point is (while you are doing that learning) to form your faith, your spirituality, your character. In seminary, how you lead prayers in chapel could be just as important as how well you learned your Greek. (And at my college, at least, we were expected in chapel morning and evening every day we were there...)

And it is a strange environment, in that many of the students either will have been selected, or will be hoping to be selected, as ordinands for whatever church. They are testing their vocations, and being tested by the process of formation. They know they are being watched and reported on, they have a lot to prove, and carry a significant degree of anxiety about all of that. Add to that that it's a time when many are dealing with their own personal histories and baggage as they grow in maturity, and it can be a peculiarly emotionally raw environment. The most petty and ridiculous things can become flashpoints of identity crisis.

What I'm trying to put into words is that seminary life is about much more than the curriculum or the world of ideas you're encountering. It's about gathering in a peculiarly diverse and challenging group of people at a vulnerable time in their lives, and through what seminary life provides, encouraging and equipping them to go out from seminary to take up leadership roles (lay or ordained) in their churches.

So if you've never encountered that world before, I think it's probably premature to decide you want to make working within it your career. Find a way to check it out before making hard decisions, would be my advice.

When I was trying to decide which seminary to go to, some had open days, where you could visit, meet staff and students, etc; might be worth seeing if some near you have anything like that?

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus knows exactly what He desires to do with each of us. So, we can simply trust Jesus and do what He has us do. There are things we need to outgrow, so we can find out how to love any and all people. Jesus cares about all the ingrown inbred church culture people, and He knows how to reach them. Real life is the seminary for learning how to love.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

By obeying . . . submitting to God . . . in His peace ruling in our "hearts", we have God Himself as our Resource guiding us according to all He knows, and He coordinates us with all His obedient children who obey Him in the ruling of His peace.

So, submit to God, and discover and enjoy. He'll do better than all you are capable of wishing and dictating, the way you are now.

"swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God" (in James 1:19-20)

"Freely you have received, freely give." (in Matthew 10:8)

 

[blackhole]

Hmm. Philosophy and psychology will definitely help you, in theology and pastoral care units.

It's about more than academics, though. I'll see if I can say something helpful about that.

When I went to seminary, I had an undergraduate degree in an unrelated field. So I understood a bit about the academic environment, how to research and write an essay, that sort of stuff. I didn't have any problem with the course content (mostly; of course it had its moments).

But the seminary environment was completely different to what I was used to from secular university. Where I'd once sat in lectures of several hundred students, now I was in an environment where thirty people was a very large class. The dynamics and relationships were very different.

And more than that, the focus was different. Where in secular university the point is to get you to learn a bunch of stuff, in seminary the point is (while you are doing that learning) to form your faith, your spirituality, your character. In seminary, how you lead prayers in chapel could be just as important as how well you learned your Greek. (And at my college, at least, we were expected in chapel morning and evening every day we were there...)

And it is a strange environment, in that many of the students either will have been selected, or will be hoping to be selected, as ordinands for whatever church. They are testing their vocations, and being tested by the process of formation. They know they are being watched and reported on, they have a lot to prove, and carry a significant degree of anxiety about all of that. Add to that that it's a time when many are dealing with their own personal histories and baggage as they grow in maturity, and it can be a peculiarly emotionally raw environment. The most petty and ridiculous things can become flashpoints of identity crisis.

What I'm trying to put into words is that seminary life is about much more than the curriculum or the world of ideas you're encountering. It's about gathering in a peculiarly diverse and challenging group of people at a vulnerable time in their lives, and through what seminary life provides, encouraging and equipping them to go out from seminary to take up leadership roles (lay or ordained) in their churches.

So if you've never encountered that world before, I think it's probably premature to decide you want to make working within it your career. Find a way to check it out before making hard decisions, would be my advice.

When I was trying to decide which seminary to go to, some had open days, where you could visit, meet staff and students, etc; might be worth seeing if some near you have anything like that?

That was very informative. It sounds like that environment would probably be even more harsh than one I'm currently in, except that I'd be a leader... I don't want that. Your suggestion of finding Christian groups on a secular campus sounds like a better idea.

I have a different question. I mentioned that I write books, so it would be helpful to have Th.D. next to my name for the purpose of gaining readers and their trust. Can I earn that, while avoiding the neurotic aspects of seminary? I imagine doing it online would work, but apart from that?

 

[Joined2krist]

Look for a seminary where you'll get doctrinal teachings similar to your views so that you don't disagree with them on major issues. As for building relationships while studying, there's always the possibility of meeting people with similar views as yours in such classes, good luck

 

[Paidiske]

I think there you might need an American to answer, because I understand the university system is a bit different over there with regard to which bodies can grant theological degrees.

I'd only comment that from watching many good friends go through the process of earning doctoral degrees, isolation can be a real difficulty.

 

[Radagast]

I think there you might need an American to answer, because I understand the university system is a bit different over there with regard to which bodies can grant theological degrees.

In both countries, a doctorate is going to require a personal relationship with a supervisor.

Seminaries would be looking for a prior theological degree and for membership of a church within the same theological tradition.

 

[Paidiske]

In both countries, a doctorate is going to require a personal relationship with a supervisor.

Seminaries would be looking for a prior theological degree and for membership of a church within the same theological tradition.

Yes, but here in Australia you can't study theology in a secular university, whereas I think in America it's a bit different.

FWIW (some?) seminaries do accept students not belonging to their own tradition. Not all of my fellow-students were Anglican, although obviously they weren't ordinands.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, but here in Australia you can't study theology in a secular university, whereas I think in America it's a bit different.

But the OP expressed a preference for conservative theology. That would rule out studying theology in a secular university.

FWIW (some?) seminaries do accept students not belonging to their own tradition. Not all of my fellow-students were Anglican, although obviously they weren't ordinands.

Perhaps I should have said "within a compatible theological tradition." Certainly most conservative seminaries would have acceptance criteria with that regard. Secular universities obviously would not.

To pick one Evangelical US seminary more or less at random, Dallas Theological Seminary looks for:

• references from the candidate's church
• an application testimony showing evidence of saving faith in Jesus Christ
• evidence of adherence to 7 core doctrines.
• evidence of being "endowed with appropriate spiritual gifts"
• evidence of already being involved in Christian ministry
• previous education providing preparation for an MTh

 

[Paidiske]

But the OP expressed a preference for conservative theology. That would rule out studying theology in a secular university.

Not necessarily... the milieu overall might not be conservative, but that doesn't mean one couldn't write a conservatively framed thesis. My point really was that I am not clear about the breadth of options available in America.

Perhaps I should have said "within a compatible theological tradition." Certainly most conservative seminaries would have acceptance criteria with that regard. Secular universities obviously would not.

I'm not sure. My experience has been that classes are generally open to anyone who wants to enrol. With the understanding that of course those classes will be delivered within the ethos of the governing body etc.

 

[Radagast]

Not necessarily... the milieu overall might not be conservative, but that doesn't mean one couldn't write a conservatively framed thesis.

In theory, yes. In practice, I doubt it very much.

My experience has been that classes are generally open to anyone who wants to enrol.

I updated my post with an American example. To pick an Australian example, Ridley College requires a "one-page statement of beliefs" plus referee reports.

Classes in secular universities are indeed generally open to anyone who wants to enrol -- but secular universities don't have the same emphasis on spiritual formation as seminaries do.