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selfishness as virtue

Selfishness

  • natural and good

  • natural and bad

  • unnatural and bad

  • other (please explain)


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redmartian89

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My personal feelings are that selfishness is both natural and good if not at the expense of others.
I hate the idea of using others for personal gain.
I think that there should be no sacrifice, you or anyone else.
It's not necessary, if approached rationally and openly.
 
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E

Everlasting33

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I voted other.

Selfish: "too much concern with one's own welfare"

Selfishness is an overall attitude that a person carries with him or her. One can have a hobby and eat without being selfish, but sometimes a person may simply live his or her life to use people as a means to finding selfish desires...that is selfish.

However, it may be hard to determine exactly where the line is...between self preservation and selfishness.

Just my thoughts.
 
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meebs

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Are humans naturally selfish? Is this good or bad?

Reasons?

DISCLAIMER: what I mean by selfishness is this --
looking out for your own interests so long as you do NOT violate other's rights to look after their own

this includes hobbies, school, and even eating

Selfish is natural and neither good or bad.

My own personal philosophy is that there is a time to be selfish and a time to be selfless. (though i try haha i don't get it right).

I agree with your stance on selfish, though i know a lot of people can be selfish at the expense of others.
 
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Jadeite

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I think selfishness is fine as long as you aren't actively destroying another person's rights i.e. intentionally harming them physically or financially. Emotionally, I'm not sure where the line on selfishness lies - you can't control another person's feelings, and I'm not sure where the moral line should be drawn when it becomes harmful to put your needs over another person's emotional state.
Am I selfish? Yes, in that I put my interests above anothers. I will make concessions to others, but this is usually because it is in my own long-term interests.
Even being kind to others is a kind of selfishness I think, as you generally do this because it makes you feel good to do it or because it will increase your chances of gaining the goodwill of others.
 
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Nithavela

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Selfishness can be good if you don't overdo it... and this is where your question is just poorly phrased. As long as selfishness ensures our survival and well-being, it is good. When we get ostracized from society because of our selfishness, it is bad.

Also, you can be both selfish AND appear altruistic. Think, for example, of someone who has lots of money and gives out money to homeless. He appears to be helping them, but in reality he is just doing it to be praised by them and others for his good deeds.
 
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quatona

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Are humans naturally selfish?
Depends on what you mean when saying selfish.
Is this good or bad?
Good or bad by which standards?
Humans naturally have two eyes. Is this good or bad?


DISCLAIMER: what I mean by selfishness is this --
looking out for your own interests so long as you do NOT violate other's rights to look after their own
Why yes, of course.
Unfortunately that doesn´t seem to be what people usually mean when saying "selfish". In my observation they use it as a means to prove a certain behaviour inacceptable.
 
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Beanieboy

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Ayn Rand wrote that being selfish - full of self, is actually good and necessary. I agree that before we love ourselves, it's very difficult to truly love another. If we don't care for ourselves, how can we care for our children?

However, the buttons that selfishness pushes in me are anecdotes of people who were selfish, as in, only caring for self, and not caring for others. Heather used to say, "I'm going to Florida!" because she wanted the class to envy her. I once told my roommate Chad, who had made a steak with sauteed mushrooms, that smelled great. With disdain, he said, "what? Do you want me to give you a bit or something?" I didn't. It was just a comment, and he took it as a threat, like, I was trying to steal something from him.

This is usually what i see from people that are insistant that they are only responsible to self - they see others as a threat, others who "steal" from them, and hold their possessions with fear and distrust.

Since moving to Canada, I've noticed a subtle difference here. People are responsible to self, but also to the community. They realize that making a strong community, a strong education system, in turn, helps them. It's reciprocal.

And that seems a far better life.

Let's say that I went to the store and got a big bag of M&M's for my class. We didn't use all of them, and I still had some, but rather than offer them to the other teachers, I just keep them for myself.

It's not that big of a deal to the teachers, but the principle is - that I have more than enough, but refuse to share. That is what the problem is that I see in the US, and then we wonder why we have problems with violence and social unrest, homeless people in a wealthy nation, children living in poverty, etc.

I once asked a girl from Nepal the difference between her country and the States. She said, "We go to work, come home, eat supper, and then go visit with our friends and neighbors. Here, you go to work, come home, lock your door, eat supper and watch TV. It seems so selfish not to share yourself with other people."

And then people in the States complain about how lonely they feel or how cold the world is. It's because we only think of ourselves, and never as a community (which is also ourselves.)

When the body is cold, it takes the warmth from the feet and hands and moves it to the vital organs. It works as a body. In a society, where people refuse to think of anyone but themselves, it's like the extremeties saying, "Hey, I'm warm enough - the vitals can find their own heat." And were that to happen, we would probably die walking outside.

I don't believe that we are set up to be islands. I think that mankind is set up to need each other - to love each other, to feel love, to have to ask for help, feel lonely to motivate us to seek out others.

So, if one lives their life only taking for the self, not smiling at the morning person giving you coffee because you don't want to and it does nothing for your gain, not offering help to someone who needs it, not opening a door for someone that is struggling, it makes you hardened, uncaring, and is its own punishment, because it cuts you off from other people, and that connection with other people, that flow of energy between each other, is what I think is God.

So, you live in isolation, not just from people, but from God as well, distrustful, insecure about the potential to lose something, suspicious, hardened.

I keep seeing the image of Daffy Duck, when he finally finds the Jewels, yelling, "their mine! All mine!"
The first words out of a 2 year old.
 
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redmartian89

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I agree that helping others can be a good thing. It doesn't mean we're not caring or loving of ourselves.
It's just like when I'm proud of my accomplishments or pursue my interests, it doesn't mean I close myself to the world. It means that I value my life as my own.
I don't want anyone to live their life for me like I refuse to live my life for someone else. We do what we think is right for us, even if that means sacrificing short term goals for the long term.
I have read a little from Ayn Rand and understand why she thinks that selfishness (or looking for your self-interest) is a virtue. She mentions in her writings that selfishness is only good or real if you're looking out for your own rational self-interest (ex: starting a business is good, robbing a bank is bad)
I think that selfishness can be useful in society if applied to what is best for all of us, or all of our common interests such as schools, hospitals, or roads. We see what we need, we make it happen, and all of society benefits as we do. Say my town wants Toyota, but no one sells Toyotas near by. I start a Toyota dealership in my town, and more people get a Toyota, and I get profit. Everybody in the town gets their specific interest met.
 
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Beanieboy

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Yeah, Rand says in The Fountainhead that one must be truly selfish - full of self - to help others. She illustrates this with a woman who works helping people on welfare, and then is upset that they are not thankful, or that people don't think what she is doing is noble - but that is what she wants - thanks, and to be thought of as noble.

I was thinking about this a bit, and I think the definition is different in Rand's book.

When I think of those I've known who are "selfish", or one that others describe that way, it has to do with those who insist on taking, without caring about the outcome for others.

For example, someone asks you to work for them on your day off 2 or 3 times. You agree, but when you really need to switch with them, they can't, or say that they don't want to.

A manager of mine, when I was working PT at a dept store, asked everyone on our floor team to work very hard. For each store credit card, we received a dollar. And she really wanted us to work hard, because the team that received got, well, SHE got, a Coach bag. So, I open up 10 accts, i get $10, and she gets a $900 bag.

Motivation for me? No. It was rather selfish, in my opinion, and yet, she couldn't figure out why that wouldn't motivate us.

On The Office, Michael has a Holiday Gift exchange to motivate morale. The limit is $15. You open a present, and then you can steal. One person opens a present, and it's an oven mit. The second opens it up, and it's an iPod, that Michael bought. When asked why he bought that when he knew what the limit was, he slipped and said he bought it with the $3000 bonus. Except No one he worked with received any of that bonus. Needless to say, morale dropped.

When I worked for a bond brokerage, 3 people ran the head offices. The business made a profit, and they were allowed to split the 1 million bonus as they thought it should be split, so they split it 3 ways.

Needless to say, the traders, who did all of the work, wouldn't even talk as they left the room, some decided to quit.

That's the kind of "selfishness" that I have seen - one if which people buy far too much food, and then throw it away because it's theirs, rather than thinking about how bad it is to waste food when people have none.

A friend of mine from El Salvador worked with me in the cafeteria, scraping plates, and the first day, he was so angry, he cried, saying, "you waste so much food, even though so many people in my country barely have enough rice and beans to live."

And people shrug and say, "Whatever."

That is selfishness to me.
 
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redmartian89

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The scenarios you bring up are regretable, but people have that decision to make. Some people are just jerks like that, but I've seen that most people are generous and kind.

I've seen "selfless" people commit horrible acts to achieve the goals of their group. Just look at how racist or other groups groom their flocks with hate for all people not in the group. These group members go to all lengths to destroy any real or imaginary threats to their group's survival.

Granted, some "selfish" people do the same. But remember my original point, my definition is rational selfishness. It's a question of: what's right for me? If I know that someone is starving and I fed them, I know that I did it and I can feel good about it.

Let me ask you this: If I'm wealthier then heck, with more money can I could ever hope to spend; and I sign over most of my money to charities I don't know or care about, would I be commiting a good act?

he was so angry, he cried, saying, "you waste so much food, even though so many people in my country barely have enough rice and beans to live.

I guess being the largest donater of food and money in the world isn't enough for you.
 
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Savage78

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I believe in grabbing all you can and holding it for yourself. Look out for your own family and if the neighbours are starving help them because in a way one day you may need something from them.

There is no such thing as a selfless act, everyone does something for something...for example a good christian goes to work at a soup kitchen on christmas day, why are they doing it...certainly to help their fellow man, sure that is part of the reason...to make themselves feel good and also to help them get into heaven....no such thing as a selfless act.
 
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Eudaimonist

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DISCLAIMER: what I mean by selfishness is this --
looking out for your own interests so long as you do NOT violate other's rights to look after their own

this includes hobbies, school, and even eating

I voted natural and good, but since it is a matter of choice, by natural I don't mean that people are born with this type of character. Rather, I mean that such character is naturally good and healthy for people to develop.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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