Self-will vs Maturity....

[Not me]

Self-will vs Maturity

Once we become saved we become His. Now starts the growing process...Which is the growing of a new creature in Christ...The growing of this new creation in us starts at the moment of salvation. With the promise to each one of us, of growing this new creation into a full grown man in Christ...

Each believer is given the same hope, the same help, the same grace. What a believer chooses to do with this grace that is freely given to them, is the choice of the believer’s heart....They can choose to allow this grace to grow them into a full grown man in Christ. Or they can choose to not grow, or grow just a little, but to remain mostly as they are, which scripture describes as a babe, child or young man in Christ.... Saved, with a degree of joy, and a degree of victory. And than other times, joyless, even to the extent of being a severe judge of those that would choose to grow and not remain as they are...

Scripture says that if we would be disciples of His, (people that would follow after Christ), the one thing we must do is deny self...For this is the one thing that keeps a believer back from following Christ fully. Their love of their own lives, their love of their own will...For self cannot be made to follow Christ....Self or own will is just that, that life in us that demands its own way...This is why, as scripture says, it must be given up, denied or reckon dead...For it can not but want what it wants, for it is a life onto itself, it’s own will, it’s own life...

The reason that own will is evil, is because own will is that will that doesn’t care about what is right, but only what it wants in any and every situation...What looks good to it or gives it an advantage...Doing what is right in the situation takes second place to what it wants... Therefore must this will be given up....For having to live and walk in self will is what we are saved from...This will that can not walk in righteousness, but demands to be lifted up above righteousness, that it might have the pre-eminence ....

For righteousness, which is doing right in each and every set of circumstances, is that thing that is right in that set of circumstances... It is doing the right thing, that is the only thing that God can bless with joy, peace, growth, increase and all good things....

Self or own will is that thing that stands against righteousness. Therefore self will is that thing that stands against us growing in this grace that comes from God.... For the grace is always there for the receiving. For Christ has died and been given to mankind, now by faith we can choose to grab unto this Gift of God or not... We can choose to turn to Him with our whole heart or only to a degree and keep some back to the fantasies we find in our mind...

For self, thinking it sees, thinking it knows, thinking it is something different or something special... It is that that builds the kingdom of self and own will. For it deceives itself, it thinks that which it sees as right and wrong is what righteousness is, not knowing that God’s righteousness is that which is free from all disorder...Which is impossible for man to walk in on his own.

This is the gift of righteousness to man that man can not walk in but by faith.....By trusting in the operation of God in them, can and will self-will be set aside, therefore by faith will they come from under its power....Which is all done by faith in the operation of God in the heart...

For God is God and He is good and He loves and has His heart set on manifesting His righteousness, which is His salvation, in us in the time of this life... The choice of allowing Him, is the choice each believer’s heart makes... The fruit of that decision will be seen in the believers life...For nothing can manifest God but God Himself...

For Christ or self is the choice set before man..

Be blessed in the moment by moment choosing, Not me

 

[robinriley]

Was there a scripture in there, somewhere, or is this just ...

 

[Not me]

Was there a scripture in there, somewhere, or is this just ...

It is just.....

Be blessed in Him, for righteousness is right and Not me....

 

[childeye 2]

It is just.....

Be blessed in Him, for righteousness is right and Not me....

Not me. I get it.

 

[Not me]

Not me. I get it.

Be blessed as we grow in Him...

A fellow servant of His, Not me

 

[childeye 2]

Be blessed as we grow in Him...

A fellow servant of His, Not me

Thanks be to God. And thanks be to God I am thankful.

 

[Not me]

Thanks be to God. And thanks be to God I am thankful.

Very true and good words, for wise is the believer that sees..

“For wisdom is justified by her children”

Be blessed as we continue to learn Christ, Not me

 

[Quietus]

So where does our will end, and His begin? I keep hearing this over and over. Deny self, let Him take over? But then, when I give up on striving, I fall into apathy.

If I strive to live righteous, then it’s me working in my own flesh and I ultimately fail.

So we still have to put forth some of our own will, right? In order to care, in order to place our thoughts and desires on God and Godly things versus worldly things, in order to decide to deny self, etc.

 

[Not me]

So where does our will end, and His begin? I keep hearing this over and over. Deny self, let Him take over? But then, when I give up on striving, I fall into apathy.

If I strive to live righteous, then it’s me working in my own flesh and I ultimately fail.

So we still have to put forth some of our own will, right? In order to care, in order to place our thoughts and desires on God and Godly things versus worldly things, in order to decide to deny self, etc.

Hi, if you would forgive my boldness...

It seems to me one would only fall into apathy because they do not yet see the severity of the need to come out from under their fallen nature... That being said...

I believe you fail because you think there is something that you still can do in your own strength that will overcome the desires of the flesh and please God...

It is when a believer comes to see that they have no strength in them to ever hope of overcoming themselves and the evil they find them. It is than they are in the proper state to turn and run, for run they will, to God by the faith of their hearts...Constantly never to take their eyes off of Him..To live in a state of faith towards God.. Than they trust Him to live His life in and through them...Which is a most blessed life that will see one victory after another..

Than I live, but yet not I, but Christ living in me, becomes a living reality.

Christianity is having a personal relationship with Christ and it is that inward relationship with Him that will teach and explain all things of our salvation to the heart that wants to see and understand them in truth..

Be blessed as you go to Him that He might make your heart understand..

A fellow servant of His, Not me

 

[K2K]

Was there a scripture in there, somewhere, or is this just ...

I believe this section of the forum is supposed to be more about fellowship than just discussing scripture. The following is from the purpose statement for this section

"It's alright to discuss Scripture if it's done in the spirit of fellowship and praise and not with the intention of getting into a debate about the interpretation of Scripture or theological topics. We would like this forum to remain a place where Christian members from all denominations can find pure, simple, and uncomplicated love of our Savior and of our family in Him."

Of course Jesus said something about "If you begin evil..." which was recorded in the Scriptures

That is something we need to understand about ourselves, which appears to be what the OP is about. And this is important to understand because there is more about repentance in the Scriptures. If we don't recognize that we are evil and only God is good (and that too is in the Scriptures) then how or why are we going to repent. If we don't repent, how or why are we going to seek the Lord. And the Scriptures were written so that we might seek the Lord.

I believe that is why in the OP we see the statement that our self will stands against righteousness and thus God. It may be a bit wordy, but surely if we are listening to the Lord we have become aware that His thoughts are not our thoughts. I am selfish. Maybe I don't want to be selfish, but I am. So perhaps I can get myself to give a good gift, but even that takes some effort and I am not sure. Perhaps I am giving the gift to get noticed back?

And from and even more practical view point; am I even in a position to know what the right things to do is? So if perhaps I decide I want to overcome my selfishness; can I even by my own free will and determination do what is right since I am not in the position that God is in?

If I want to do what is right, and all unrighteousness is sin, then I can not lean on my own understanding. That too is a scripture. So I must turn to the Lord and listen to His voice! That too is in the Scriptures. So if I apply the Scriptures, I follow the Lord and what He tells me. I believe that is the maturity talked about in the OP.

As a testimony, and I put this out as fellowship, I find asking the Lord for help with giving gifts is very interesting! In fact asking the Lord and listening by faith has resulted in some of the more incredible and incredibly weird gift giving experiences.

Once I was shopping for a Christmas gift for my mom and asking the Lord. He had me get a fold up card table. That got me into and argument with Him. My mom had a card table and I told Him so. Yeah, but He want me to get in for her anyway. "She didn't need two card tables" I told Him. But I was left with a decision; was I going to get what He suggested or lean on my own understanding. I got the card table.

I was so embarrassed that when I went to my brothers house on Christmas eve, where we were gathering, I left that card table in the car. Now I have a "Christian" family but that doesn't mean they all hear from the Lord. My mom does but my brother doesn't, and won't accept my testimonies about hearing form the Lord, though he does regularly good to church. Anyway, I went in and pulled my mom aside, because I was embarrassed by what I got her. I took her out to the car and showed her the card table, because I thought it a silly gift. I told her that Lord asked me to get it for her and she started laughing. She wasn't laughing at the gift though, she was laughing at how incredible God is.

It turned out that she had just given her old card table to my brother because the Lord had told her too. My brother always seemed to be the one entertaining people at his house, so the Lord had told her to give him her old card table. She had just got done giving it to him, and now she saw the Lord was replacing her old card table with a brand new one.

My friends - the Lord our God is awesome but are you going to know if you don't listen to Him. I knew how awesome the Lord was that night because I listened and obeyed. My mom knew how awesome the Lord was because she listened and obey. My brother had gotten a card table because he often entertained but he had no idea what the Lord had done, and even when I try to explain this type of thing to him it goes right by him and he can't accept my testimony because he can't grasp the concept of listening by faith. And as you can see, even I am still learning to trust and obey. That is how you get maturity as a Christian!

 

[John Helpher]

Self or own will is that thing that stands against righteousness.

I think I understand what you mean, though I would say that self-will is essentially the same thing as free will. Making choices is a gift from God; it is what allows us to learn and grow. We tend to make bad choices, sometimes because of ignorance, but usually because of some kind of selfish motivation (which is the self-will I believe you're referring to). I think the will can be trained away from selfish decisions, though.

This is what it means to develop character, sincerity, integrity, and wisdom.

 

[K2K]

I think I understand what you mean, though I would say that self-will is essentially the same thing as free will. Making choices is a gift from God; it is what allows us to learn and grow. We tend to make bad choices, sometimes because of ignorance, but usually because of some kind of selfish motivation (which is the self-will I believe you're referring to). I think the will can be trained away from selfish decisions, though.

This is what it means to develop character, sincerity, integrity, and wisdom.

I really liked the post!! I believe it covered the issue really well.

However - are we right to assume that we can train away our selfish decisions?

I don't think so, and I would suggest that even stating that implies a selfishness. It is not easy to see, but if I say that I think I can by my power not be selfish, am I not also saying that I can be God? Think about it. God did give me free will and my nature, that of being a man. And my nature tends to want to look our for myself. So if I am saying I can change my nature then I am proclaiming to be God and change my nature that God gave me!

Of course God also gave me the ability to think, which results in free will. So I can battle against by selfish nature, but that does not mean I can change it. It means that God gave me both my nature and the ability to think about my nature, which makes me a different than animals. Maturity then, is our ability to overcome, not change, our selfish nature. And that overcoming is done by thinking and making good choices. Yet if I do think about it, I should come to the realization that only God is good! So to truly do what is right I must seeking the Lord and listen to what He says. My sinful nature is always going to be a challenge to me. Thus trust and obey the Lord is the only correct conclusion.

Perhaps God can help train us away from selfish decisions. In that way, perhaps He can even change by selfish behaviour. It might even be what He is up to. But how long does that take, and if He wants us turning to Him, and it seems He does, then is that really His goal or objective or is the relationship with Him the objectice?

I believe His objective is the relationship. Therefore, while I believe He does helps us think to overcome our sinful nature, He is not really about changing our nature as much as He about creating a relationship. Our sinful nature, if we think about it, should lead us to God for help. So we need to think about that, which is what the Op was about, wasn't it?

 

[Not me]

I think I understand what you mean, though I would say that self-will is essentially the same thing as free will. Making choices is a gift from God; it is what allows us to learn and grow. We tend to make bad choices, sometimes because of ignorance, but usually because of some kind of selfish motivation (which is the self-will I believe you're referring to). I think the will can be trained away from selfish decisions, though.

This is what it means to develop character, sincerity, integrity, and wisdom.

Hi, thank you for your thoughtful response for I see some good solid searching in it. If you would allow me to add a few thoughts I would be most grateful..

Self-will and free-will are words describing the two possible states of the will of man. Self-will being that state of man’s will when it is in bondage to sin or self. Free-will is that state of man’s will when it is not in bondage to sin or self...

This is why being joined with Christ in His death is put forth in scripture has that which frees us from us... For only death can put an end to that will we were born with when we were born in Adam, which will was in bondage to sin/self. This is why our salvation is the new birth, the Divine nature being brought to life in us. Which gives us a new life, a new will, a new nature that is not in bondage to sin and never can be for all eternity. Blessed be God Who gives us a free-will for all eternity.

Which is the “for freedom did Christ set us free” being manifested for all eternity..

Anyways hope these words help and give you something to ponder before God..

Be blessed as we grow closer to Him, Not me

I really liked the post!! I believe it covered the issue really well.

However - are we right to assume that we can train away our selfish decisions?

I don't think so, and I would suggest that even stating that implies a selfishness. It is not easy to see, but if I say that I think I can by my power not be selfish, am I not also saying that I can be God? Think about it. God did give me free will and my nature, that of being a man. And my nature tends to want to look our for myself. So if I am saying I can change my nature then I am proclaiming to be God and change my nature that God gave me!

Of course God also gave me the ability to think, which results in free will. So I can battle against by selfish nature, but that does not mean I can change it. It means that God gave me both my nature and the ability to think about my nature, which makes me a different than animals. Maturity then, is our ability to overcome, not change, our selfish nature. And that overcoming is done by thinking and making good choices. Yet if I do think about it, I should come to the realization that only God is good! So to truly do what is right I must seeking the Lord and listen to what He says. My sinful nature is always going to be a challenge to me. Thus trust and obey the Lord is the only correct conclusion.

Perhaps God can help train us away from selfish decisions. In that way, perhaps He can even change by selfish behaviour. It might even be what He is up to. But how long does that take, and if He wants us turning to Him, and it seems He does, then is that really His goal or objective or is the relationship with Him the objectice?

I believe His objective is the relationship. Therefore, while I believe He does helps us think to overcome our sinful nature, He is not really about changing our nature as much as He about creating a relationship. Our sinful nature, if we think about it, should lead us to God for help. So we need to think about that, which is what the Op was about, wasn't it?

Hi, I think you are correct. The will we were born with from Adam can not be trained to not sin. It can only be given over to death that we might be separated from it..

I love your heart....Keep pressing into this relationship with Christ for freedom from self is freedom from sin..

A fellow laborer in Christ, Not me

 

[CaspianSails]

Greetings Not Me.

You are well on the mark and encouraging to those on the path. As I decrease, my will withers, Christ will increase. The result is the fruits of the Spirit manifest in a human life. It is a blessing when one sees those just starting on the path eyes opening to this truth. I sometimes say that sanctification is a lifelong process and when I am done my savior will call me home. I also heard a song, I believe, that said something to the effect that God has not yet called me home because I am not yet ready. Something to think about. It does remind me of a sermon I heard many decades ago at a retreat in Germany by, and I hope I don't get this wrong, Jamie Buckingham. Lord let me become a seed that falls into the ground and dies. That was the message. If it was not him then it was the pastor from Philadelphia but I don't recall His name. That message, some 40 plus years ago changed my life forever. The fact I still recall most of it demonstrates how much. In order for my life to bear fruit for my King, I must be like that seed and die only to be restored as His servant. Thanks for sharing and although no scripture was shared it is entirely clear what the basis is for your original post.

 

[Not me]

Greetings Not Me.

You are well on the mark and encouraging to those on the path. As I decrease, my will withers, Christ will increase. The result is the fruits of the Spirit manifest in a human life. It is a blessing when one sees those just starting on the path eyes opening to this truth. I sometimes say that sanctification is a lifelong process and when I am done my savior will call me home. I also heard a song, I believe, that said something to the effect that God has not yet called me home because I am not yet ready. Something to think about. It does remind me of a sermon I heard many decades ago at a retreat in Germany by, and I hope I don't get this wrong, Jamie Buckingham. Lord let me become a seed that falls into the ground and dies. That was the message. If it was not him then it was the pastor from Philadelphia but I don't recall His name. That message, some 40 plus years ago changed my life forever. The fact I still recall most of it demonstrates how much. In order for my life to bear fruit for my King, I must be like that seed and die only to be restored as His servant. Thanks for sharing and although no scripture was shared it is entirely clear what the basis is for your original post.

Thanks so much for the encouragement,

It is so true, He must become more and we less...Oh that we might learn and experience this truth in a ever increasing way!

Be blessed in Him, my fellow laborer in Christ, Not me