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Self-righteousness vs Humility

2PhiloVoid

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Good warning. Well, before we go into the application of the warning, it’s are you willing to follow Jesus as is or are you doing your own thing calling it Christianity and avoiding following Him?

I'm an existentialist, James, so I'll let you and the Lord make that evaluation about me ... ;)

I'm sure somewhere in the many question marks that float around within my own mind, I've failed somewhere, someway.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think the bottom line is a follower of Jesus in today’s world will end up suffering a lot, maybe even dying. It’s a revolution of spirituality and of society. People want to have their ways and only take snippets of Jesus teachings or Jesus-sounding teachings to create something completely different. “Christianity Light”. So light it lost Jesus

Yes it’s a very popular theology here in the US.
 
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James_Lai

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Yes, it does hurt. It hurts today just as surely as it did the day Jesus was historically crucified by way of the combined misunderstandings and misgivings of His fellow people and those of the ruling Romans.

Moreover, what we find in the New Testament reminds us to be on guard against false brethren, false teachers, false apostles, false prophets and ... terrible situations that we all find ourselves caught in this painful world. Then too, we're reminded to be on guard against the deceptions of our own hearts that might lead us astray to, more sadly, hurt other people.

Do you think I have a point or am I confused and stumbling in my own extra idealism??? Childish maximalist position??? Or there’s some sense in what I’m trying to say??
 
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James_Lai

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I'm an existentialist, James, so I'll let you and the Lord make that evaluation about me ... ;)

I'm sure somewhere in the many question marks that float around within my own mind, I've failed somewhere, someway.

not you personally but “you” as anyone who encounters Jesus
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you think I have a point or am I confused and stumbling in my own extra idealism??? Childish maximalist position??? Or there’s some sense it what I’m trying to say??

I think you may be over stereotyping a bit. There are many people out there who risk all and suffer for Christ on a daily basis. A lot of people out there doing missionary work in very dangerous places risking their very lives to serve Him.
 
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James_Lai

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Yes it’s a very popular theology here in the US.

It’s very very easy to say a prayer, get baptized and to become a “Christian”.

It’s awfully hard to follow Jesus. I can’t. I can’t make that decision because I’m not ready to be what He wants me to be, and I’m struggling deeply now writing this.

I think you may be over stereotyping a bit. There are many people out there who risk all and suffer for Christ on a daily basis. A lot of people out there doing missionary work in very dangerous places risking their very lives to serve Him.

Yes and I met such missionaries personally myself. Not all of them follow Jesus
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you think I have a point or am I confused and stumbling in my own extra idealism??? Childish maximalist position??? Or there’s some sense in what I’m trying to say??

James, I think you're well meaning in offering your feelings on a serious issue that we all notice to be the case in our chaotic (and 'fallen'?) world. I don't think your childish in the least. Are you a little idealistic? Perhaps. But I know from what I've seen you share with us over the past few months since you've joined CF, you've had your own pain to have to deal with. So, I commend you on being vigilant in your thoughts on all of this.

It's just that if what you've said about following Jesus is true--and I think it is to a certain degree--then surely we can both agree that a bit of what you've said AND a bit of what I've said are each a part of the composite that we have in the overall message of the New Testament.

We expect Christians, if they're 'real,' to be able to do morally and socially better than most. At the same time, we also know that all 'real' Christians are still fallible human beings carrying around a dual nature and they may still sin from time to time (I'm thinking of Peter here). We also know that there are those who claim the Christian faith but perhaps haven't really actualized it in their hearts and minds (I'm thinking of Judas here and certain individuals alluded to in the Parable of the Sower).

The upshot in this is that, I think, expecting some kind of Wesleyian Perfectionism probably isn't the best hermenuetic to apply to our handling of our reading of some thing called "Christianity.'
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you think I have a point or am I confused and stumbling in my own extra idealism??? Childish maximalist position??? Or there’s some sense in what I’m trying to say??

Sorry. I had to edit a little what I previously wrote just above.
 
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Sketcher

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All of them. Christ isn’t an authority to them. They listen to their own teachers who have totally perverted the ways of Jesus
That's not my experience of Christians. That's definitely not the way I try to live. That doesn't square with many Christians I have spent time with, prayed for, and counseled. Generally speaking, we do strive to be more Christ-like, but we don't bat 1.000 and some of us strike out colossally, but the attitude and lifestyle you describe is one of total apathy. There is no way that accounts for 2+ billion Christians globally. Which specific churches did you attend where you saw this total apathy writ large?
 
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James_Lai

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That's not my experience of Christians. That's definitely not the way I try to live. That doesn't square with many Christians I have spent time with, prayed for, and counseled. Generally speaking, we do strive to be more Christ-like, but we don't bat 1.000 and some of us strike out colossally, but the attitude and lifestyle you describe is one of total apathy. There is no way that accounts for 2+ billion Christians globally. Which specific churches did you attend where you saw this total apathy writ large?

Yes there are some individual Christians who follow Jesus, it’s a rarity
 
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James_Lai

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James, I think you're well meaning in offering your feelings on a serious issue that we all notice to be the case in our chaotic (and 'fallen'?) world. I don't think your childish in the least. Are you a little idealistic? Perhaps. But I know from what I've seen you share with us over the past few months since you've joined CF, you've had your own pain to have to deal with. So, I commend you on being vigilant in your thoughts on all of this.

It's just that if what you've said about following Jesus is true--and I think it is to a certain degree--then surely we can both agree that a bit of what you've said AND a bit of what I've said are each a part of the composite that we have in the overall message of the New Testament.

We expect Christians, if they're 'real,' to be able to do morally and socially better than most. At the same time, we also know that all 'real' Christians are still fallible human beings carrying around a dual nature and they may still sin from time to time (I'm thinking of Peter here). We also know that there are those who claim the Christian faith but perhaps haven't really actualized it in their hearts and minds (I'm thinking of Judas here and certain individuals alluded to in the Parable of the Sower).

The upshot in this is that, I think, expecting some kind of Wesleyian Perfectionism probably isn't the best hermenuetic to apply to our handling of our reading of some thing called "Christianity.'

It’s not about morally in general - my atheist friends are more moral than most Christians I know… It’s about the teaching of Jesus…
 
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Sketcher

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Yes there are some individual Christians who follow Jesus, it’s a rarity
There's too many of us for this to be a rarity.

Which specific churches we're you going to and which specific teachings did they flagrantly flout, and how did they flout them?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It’s not about morally in general - my atheist friends are more moral than most Christians I know… It’s about the teaching of Jesus…

Yes, I agree. And I'm referring to the teaching of Jesus as well, but I perhaps get at what I think the composite of 'Jesus' teaching' is in a little different way than you. And that's ok. We all have to wrestle with it as we can. The bible, and Jesus "teaching," is a hard text to deal with.

I'll just say that for myself, I realize that I have no righteousness of my own before the face of God. Moreover, while I value the idea of humility, I also like to parse out the opposite concept of 'false-humility' because as an analytic, existential philosophical type of person, I refuse to kowtow to definitions of humility that require me to obscure (or worse yet, deny) who I am or any good thing I might be able to do.
 
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James_Lai

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Yes, I agree. And I'm referring to the teaching of Jesus as well, but I perhaps get at what I think the composite of 'Jesus' teaching' is in a little different way than you. And that's ok. We all have to wrestle with it as we can. The bible, and Jesus "teaching," is a hard text to deal with.

I'll just say that for myself, I realize that I have no righteousness of my own before the face of God. Moreover, while I value the idea of humility, I also like to parse out the opposite concept of 'false-humility' because as an analytic, existential philosophical type of person, I refuse to kowtow to definitions of humility that require me to obscure (or worse yet, deny) who I am or any good thing I might be able to do.

I agree about humility
 
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James_Lai

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There's too many of us for this to be a rarity.

Which specific churches we're you going to and which specific teachings did they flagrantly flout, and how did they flout them?

All kinds of churches - protestant, Orthodox, Catholic. More liberal ones and conservative, free and fundamentalist, traditional and reformed. Large and small. Many different types. Every possible denomination. Also JW, Mormon, maybe some other
 
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disciple Clint

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in every way possible… They have put Him aside and created their own ideology that uses His name to proclaim what He never supported or even opposed
Do you have any specific examples of what you see as being wrong?
 
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timf

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It’s very very easy to say a prayer, get baptized and to become a “Christian”.

It’s awfully hard to follow Jesus. I can’t. I can’t make that decision because I’m not ready to be what He wants me to be, and I’m struggling deeply now writing this.


A friend once told me of a fear she had in surrendering to Jesus. She considered a circumstance such as being crippled and that to her represented such a hurdle that she could not allow the possibility that God might ask that of her.

I suggested that there are many crippled people who adjust to their circumstances. I suggested that perhaps she did not appreciate the grace God gives to different people in different circumstances.

It sounds like you are fearful of being unable to conduct your life in accordance with the perfection of Jesus. This is a legitimate fear because we are all unable to perform that way. However, the perfection of Jesus is a direction that we are encouraged to orient ourselves.

Our earthly progress in that direction is a function of the degree to which we surrender ourselves to the work of the Holy Spirit in us. This work is described in Galatians.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

It is interesting to note that the character quality improvements that the Holy Spirit desires to make in our lives does not require our cleverness or strength to achieve. Rather we are asked to use our free will to choose to abandon the works of the flesh.

Here is a free pdf booklet called Walking by the Spirit.

http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/wbts.pdf

It can be viewed on a cellphone as web pages here;

Christian Pioneer - Current blog

The original title of this thread seems to indicate your frustration as seeing Christians as hypocrites pretending to claim the attributes that Jesus exhorts us towards.

In all fairness many claiming Christ actually do think that they have completed the Christian walk. However, those that have a deeper appreciation for what the bible says find ourselves growing in the truth that can only lead to increasing humility.

It an be mystifying to consider that there are those who are accepted by God who are lazy, and resist the exhortation to actually live a Christian life.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus wants a lot of us… It’s clear as day what He wants, most people if not all don’t really want to go that path.
Jesus is about what is possible with God, not what is possible with us. And with God we are guaranteed what He is able to do.

All His word says is easy for Him in His grace which is almighty in us.
 
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James_Lai

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Yes, I agree. And I'm referring to the teaching of Jesus as well, but I perhaps get at what I think the composite of 'Jesus' teaching' is in a little different way than you. And that's ok. We all have to wrestle with it as we can. The bible, and Jesus "teaching," is a hard text to deal with.

I'll just say that for myself, I realize that I have no righteousness of my own before the face of God. Moreover, while I value the idea of humility, I also like to parse out the opposite concept of 'false-humility' because as an analytic, existential philosophical type of person, I refuse to kowtow to definitions of humility that require me to obscure (or worse yet, deny) who I am or any good thing I might be able to do.

I disagree that Jesus teaching is complicated and prone to all sorts of understanding of I understand you correctly.

I think it’s mostly very simple and clear, the problem lays with people because they don’t want to accept and follow it, but they still want to be associated with Him. So they invent all kinds of workarounds… I don’t like it at all. Be or don’t be.
 
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James_Lai

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It’s very very easy to say a prayer, get baptized and to become a “Christian”.

It’s awfully hard to follow Jesus. I can’t. I can’t make that decision because I’m not ready to be what He wants me to be, and I’m struggling deeply now writing this.


A friend once told me of a fear she had in surrendering to Jesus. She considered a circumstance such as being crippled and that to her represented such a hurdle that she could not allow the possibility that God might ask that of her.

I suggested that there are many crippled people who adjust to their circumstances. I suggested that perhaps she did not appreciate the grace God gives to different people in different circumstances.

It sounds like you are fearful of being unable to conduct your life in accordance with the perfection of Jesus. This is a legitimate fear because we are all unable to perform that way. However, the perfection of Jesus is a direction that we are encouraged to orient ourselves.

Our earthly progress in that direction is a function of the degree to which we surrender ourselves to the work of the Holy Spirit in us. This work is described in Galatians.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

It is interesting to note that the character quality improvements that the Holy Spirit desires to make in our lives does not require our cleverness or strength to achieve. Rather we are asked to use our free will to choose to abandon the works of the flesh.

Here is a free pdf booklet called Walking by the Spirit.

http://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/wbts.pdf

It can be viewed on a cellphone as web pages here;

Christian Pioneer - Current blog

The original title of this thread seems to indicate your frustration as seeing Christians as hypocrites pretending to claim the attributes that Jesus exhorts us towards.

In all fairness many claiming Christ actually do think that they have completed the Christian walk. However, those that have a deeper appreciation for what the bible says find ourselves growing in the truth that can only lead to increasing humility.

It an be mystifying to consider that there are those who are accepted by God who are lazy, and resist the exhortation to actually live a Christian life.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

You complicate it without need. Not a fear of imperfection, not at all.

It’s honesty. I can’t live how Jesus said I need to live, I’m not ready. I hear Him. I can’t commit to something I’m not going to do, it’s dishonesty.

Most Christians have never even tried to think, believe and live as Jesus taught.
 
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