Self-hate versus Humanism

[Ledifni]

You misunderstand the notion of hatred. Hatred is not to call another blacker than he is (or even isn't!), but to will him to be blacker than he might be.

Does it follow, then, that it is impossible to hate a perfectly evil being? It's impossible to will such a being to be blacker than he might be, because he is already infinitely evil.

I disagree with your definition of hate. I don't think anybody wishes evil people were more evil than they are, so by your definition, nobody hates evil -- or else those who do are evil themselves (for one would have to be evil to consciously wish more evil on the world).

Rather, I would say that hate is wishing harm on another.

 

[PKJ]

I just wanted to comment on this statement. As a Christian, I have to tell you that my experiences have been completely different. We are not called to be submissive to "a church", but rather to humble ourselves before our Creator, and allow the blood of Christ to cleanse us from our sins.

Why do you need to humble yourself? And why that cleansing? Are you "dirty" inside?

Please consider reading my credo out loud (see 1st post of topic)

 

[PKJ]

Ahh. So..what motivates you?

G-d bless,
sc

Innate faculty to desire, would say Kant

Imagination allows me to imagine myself having pleasure in a certain situation. I then try to re-create that situation in "real life".

 

[CSMR]

Does it follow, then, that it is impossible to hate a perfectly evil being? It's impossible to will such a being to be blacker than he might be, because he is already infinitely evil.

Rather, I would say that hate is wishing harm on another.

If a person were known to be * perfectly evil with no possibility of redemption then yes, it would follow that hatred of that person would be impossible - precisely because harm of that person is impossible. (How can he be if he can be made no worse than he would be anyway?)

I disagree with your definition of hate. I don't think anybody wishes evil people were more evil than they are, so by your definition, nobody hates anyone [my correction] -- or else those who do are evil themselves (for one would have to be evil to consciously wish more evil on the world).

This argument is unclear. I agree with what you say after your "or else" but that seems like an afterthought. As for the first section without the "or else" I did not say hatred was willing another to be blacker than he is, but blacker than he might be.

*an important qualification - if knowledge were absent a will to help the evil person might be possible

 

[Ledifni]

This argument is unclear. I agree with what you say after your "or else" but that seems like an afterthought. As for the first section without the "or else" I did not say hatred was willing another to be blacker than he is, but blacker than he might be.

You'll have to clarify that, then. What do you mean by "blacker than he might be?" I'm reading over what you're saying and unless you mean "blacker than he is," I can't understand how anything you've said makes any sense at all.

 

[CSMR]

If a bad person might become better then and a person wills him to stay bad then that is hatred. (I have defined it positively - positive hatred - but perhaps a better definition would be negative: if a person does not will him to become better...)

 

[Ledifni]

If a bad person might become better then and a person wills him to stay bad then that is hatred. (I have defined it positively - positive hatred - but perhaps a better definition would be negative: if a person does not will him to become better...)

Ok, then what shall we call my emotions towards "Dr." Kent Hovind?

I think he is a despicable man. I think he deserves to have a miserable, agonizing existence. I happily wish a thousand evil things on his head, for the lies and propaganda he feeds malleable children. If I ever caught him poisoning a child of mine with his weaselly trash, I would hurt him very, very badly.

But if he were to become better, I would be ecstatic. I would even be willing to be his friend. It would be incorrect, then, to say that I "wish him to stay bad." But I do quite thoroughly "hate" him, as I understand hate. You clearly don't think that is hate, so what would you call it?

I can't even wrap my mind around the concept that you seem to be talking about. I can't understand how it is even logically possible to both believe somebody to be bad, and wish that person to stay bad. It would seem to me that "bad things" are "things we do not wish to exist," so how is it even theoretically possible to wish that a bad thing would stay bad?

 

[CSMR]

What you want to do to this man does not appear proceed from a desire for his betterment, even if you are truthful in saying that that would make you happy.
(I may try to answer more deeply later today; am busy until tonight.)

 

[sc4s2cg]

Innate faculty to desire, would say Kant

Imagination allows me to imagine myself having pleasure in a certain situation. I then try to re-create that situation in "real life".

Thanks. So basicaly you strive to achieve your dreams?

G-d bless,
sc

 

[""]

Why do you need to humble yourself? And why that cleansing? Are you "dirty" inside?

I humble myself, because I am not greater than God, and sometimes human behavior would suggest that we are. Why do I need cleansing? Because I sin. We all sin, even those of us who would like to convince themselves that they don't.

Many people, like yourself, feel like they're on top of the world, with no weights holding them down. They reach upward, feeling that they could almost touch the sky, when in reality, they're just reaching up from the bottom of a well. Darkness is deceiving. When you're surrounded by it, you begin to think that light doesn't exist, so you mock those who speak of it, live for it, and dedicate themselves to serving it.

Jesus said, I am the Way the Truth and the Light, no man cometh to the Father but by me. John 14:6

Please consider reading my credo out loud (see 1st post of topic)

Please consider reading Romans 3:23 out loud

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

Salvation isn't about making you feel bad about yourself. It's about saving you from the sin that keeps you trapped in a darkness so deep that you think it's all there is.

 

[PKJ]

What if I told you that religion is darkness? What you are going to read (or not) is entirely subjective and has no scientific pretention. Here it comes.

I think that religion is exactly what you call darkness. The Bible makes you think that you are a filthy scum unless you are "saved". Of course, then you will want to be (and remain) "under God's grace". That's logic, I mean, who would want to be a filthy scum? Once you have decided to "follow Jesus", religion cuts you from the "secular world", it forces you to do your own bridge burning, then you start to see only the darkness that they brainwashed you into thinking is light.

This is what I learned from over 15 years of being a christian. I know it's not even worth two cents, but I'll call it "my two cents" anyway. There are probably other people who will read my post and recognize themselves, and that thought is more than enough to satisfy me.

Now I'm gonna read my credo again, because thinking about my "former self" made me very depressed.

Salvation isn't about making you feel bad about yourself. It's about saving you from the sin that keeps you trapped in a darkness so deep that you think it's all there is.

Am I the only one to see a deep contradiction in that sentence?

 

[Ledifni]

What you want to do to this man does not appear proceed from a desire for his betterment, even if you are truthful in saying that that would make you happy.
(I may try to answer more deeply later today; am busy until tonight.)

You're right, it does not proceed from a desire for his betterment. However, it does not preclude a desire for his betterment, nor does it imply that I desire him to be as bad as he is. I do not think that Hovind is the way he is because bad things happened to him, so my wishing that bad things would happen to him does not mean that I wish he would continue to be evil -- perhaps if bad things happened to him, he would even learn a well-deserved lesson and become a better man.

Oh, by the way, I have a small quibble: I don't wish to do anything to Kent Hovind -- that would make me as bad as he is. I just wish he'd lose all his money and have to live out the rest of his life in a cardboard box or something.

 

[""]

This is what I learned from over 15 years of being a christian. I know it's not even worth two cents, but I'll call it "my two cents" anyway. There are probably other people who will read my post and recognize themselves, and that thought is more than enough to satisfy me.

Being that you brought yourself up, I will assume that the subject of "you" is on the table.

You have stated your age as 22, and you have said that you were a Christian for 15 years. When did you become a Christian and how did it come about? Which denonimation of the Christian church did you attend? At what age did you decide not to be a Christian?

 

[Ledifni]

This is what I learned from over 15 years of being a christian. I know it's not even worth two cents, but I'll call it "my two cents" anyway. There are probably other people who will read my post and recognize themselves, and that thought is more than enough to satisfy me.

I'm one of those people. Good thoughts.

 

[PKJ]

Being that you brought yourself up, I will assume that the subject of "you" is on the table.

You have stated your age as 22, and you have said that you were a Christian for 15 years. When did you become a Christian and how did it come about? Which denonimation of the Christian church did you attend? At what age did you decide not to be a Christian?

I was a christian from birth. I was indoctrinated from birth in the pentacostal assemblies of Canada (I can still "speak in tongues" at will). Around the age of 18 I gradually decided to give up faith. My official decision was made during summer 2004, when I was in the hospital (remember that incident with the XXX tape? ) I had alot of time to think and decided I was now a pantheist. In December 2004 I became an atheist.