Self-defense

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

What is your moral viewpoint on killing someone for self-defense or defending someone else? Or maybe just injuring them.

I am planning on moving to a city where crime is predominant. In fact, it is considered one of the most dangerous cities. So I am looking into self defense weapons, like guns or pepper spray or stun guns. Last year there was a serial killer in this City killing people in their own parking lot. It did not last long. The cops believed they had caught them. Yeah, there was more than one of them. But it still scares me a little bit.

I am also a believer in Christ. It is questionable whether I'm a true Christian or not. I still have besetting sins that I struggle with, but I still want to live a moral life. But I also know that morality isn't black or white. What I may think is wrong somebody else may think it's right.

I also do not want to take somebody else's life because I feared for my own life. I mean, would Jesus take somebody else's life to save his own? Also, what if I took somebody else's life and there was no evidence that I did it in self-defense. I have very mixed feelings about this. But at the same time I could not just stand there while somebody is being hurt and I had the ability to stop it. But everybody has guns, I could still get killed.

 

[Your Brother In Christ]

I made a video and we had a discussion about this, here it is:

Please, ask if you have any questions.

 

[LittleRowan]

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church states it best in 2263-2265:

"2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."

 

[Your Brother In Christ]

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church states it best in 2263-2265:

"2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."

I am not a Catholic and I did not know about what the Catholic Church states, but I find it interesting that I came to the same conclusion, independent of the Catholic Church. Thank you.

 

[LittleRowan]

I am not a Catholic and I did not know about what the Catholic Church states, but I find it interesting that I came to the same conclusion, independent of the Catholic Church. Thank you.

Neither am I, but I find they do tend to be quite eloquent (especially when they're right!)

 

[The Gregorian]

Here's the question- is it truly "self defense" if you intentionally put yourself in a situation where you will have to kill someone "in self defense?" Easiest answer would be- don't move to such a city. If you make an honest effort to avoid violence and are forced into it... fine. But if you carry around a gun and pick fights with people as an excuse to "defend" yourself... that's just murder. This is a religious forum, so I would remind you that God knows your true motivations. "Absence of evidence" matters legally... but morally, it's about intent... God is an eye-witness and can not be fooled with technicalities.

That being said... I'm a huge pacifist... if I were drafted into any military, I would gladly go to jail before fighting. If I had to kill someone to save my own life... I may not choose to... that being said, I consider protecting others to be paramount... if someone threatened my children, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to rip them limb from limb and crush them with my bare hands, unless a more convenient option were available. Of course, I believe in the use of force continuum... use as little force as necessary to end the conflict. If a situation CAN be handled with less force, it should be. Walking away and avoiding the conflict... even running like a "coward" is morally better than taking a life, even in self defense.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

Yes I am aware

Here's the question- is it truly "self defense" if you intentionally put yourself in a situation where you will have to kill someone "in self defense?" Easiest answer would be- don't move to such a city. If you make an honest effort to avoid violence and are forced into it... fine. But if you carry around a gun and pick fights with people as an excuse to "defend" yourself... that's just murder. This is a religious forum, so I would remind you that God knows your true motivations. "Absence of evidence" matters legally... but morally, it's about intent... God is an eye-witness and can not be fooled with technicalities.

That being said... I'm a huge pacifist... if I were drafted into any military, I would gladly go to jail before fighting. If I had to kill someone to save my own life... I may not choose to... that being said, I consider protecting others to be paramount... if someone threatened my children, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to rip them limb from limb and crush them with my bare hands, unless a more convenient option were available. Of course, I believe in the use of force continuum... use as little force as necessary to end the conflict. If a situation CAN be handled with less force, it should be. Walking away and avoiding the conflict... even running like a "coward" is morally better than taking a life, even in self defense.

Yes I am aware that God knows my intentions.

I know on these threads you cannot tell the manner in which a person speaks or communicates. I do not have a tough attitude. That is my twin brother. My motive would be out of fear, not out of killing someone. I hate the idea of killing anyone.

I fear God's Wrath and Punishment more than anything. Well, I guess not enough. Otherwise I would have more victory over my besetting sins. But I would never intentionally cause problems; that would be stupid on my part. I would lose. If you knew me you knew me, you would know that I would never intentionally start a fight.

I am also disabled. I would not be able to run away. I rely on a scooter for transportation, for I have balance issues.

So my motivation would simply be out of fear. Not to take somebody else's life.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

I made a video and we had a discussion about this, here it is:

Please, ask if you have any questions.

Thank you.

I will definitely watch that.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

Here's the question- is it truly "self defense" if you intentionally put yourself in a situation where you will have to kill someone "in self defense?" Easiest answer would be- don't move to such a city. If you make an honest effort to avoid violence and are forced into it... fine. But if you carry around a gun and pick fights with people as an excuse to "defend" yourself... that's just murder. This is a religious forum, so I would remind you that God knows your true motivations. "Absence of evidence" matters legally... but morally, it's about intent... God is an eye-witness and can not be fooled with technicalities.

That being said... I'm a huge pacifist... if I were drafted into any military, I would gladly go to jail before fighting. If I had to kill someone to save my own life... I may not choose to... that being said, I consider protecting others to be paramount... if someone threatened my children, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to rip them limb from limb and crush them with my bare hands, unless a more convenient option were available. Of course, I believe in the use of force continuum... use as little force as necessary to end the conflict. If a situation CAN be handled with less force, it should be. Walking away and avoiding the conflict... even running like a "coward" is morally better than taking a life, even in self defense.

I think you are right though. I have been doing some thinking.

And if I am a scared of death, it is because I am not putting my faith in God. David said "though I walked into the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for though art with me." That verse was not very significant to me until now. I think I shouldn't be wasting my time in seeking self-defense devices. I should be building my relationship with God through Jesus. But that is easier said than done.

My addictions keeps me from seeking God.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am planning on moving to a city where crime is predominant.

Part of self defence: Avoid this if possible.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

Part of self defence: Avoid this if possible.

You are probably right.

 

[The Gregorian]

And if I am a scared of death, it is because I am not putting my faith in God. David said "though I walked into the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for though art with me." That verse was not very significant to me until now. I think I shouldn't be wasting my time in seeking self-defense devices. I should be building my relationship with God through Jesus. But that is easier said than done.

My addictions keeps me from seeking God.

What in the world kind of addiction would keep you from seeking God? Have you read the bible? Read the story of Gideon... God doesn't hedge his bets and require people to be strong to be used... he very specifically uses the weak to be great teachers so that there isn't confusionnthat he is the one giving them strength... he sent home most of Gideon's army specifically to show that THEY didn't win the war... they were just witnesses to God's victory.

Read Mark 2:1-17 again too... seriously. And psalms 28:7. You don't have to be strong... just acknowledge that YOU aren't, and let God be your strength.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't protect yourself too... but YOU protecting yourself is a last resort.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

What in the world kind of addiction would keep you from seeking God? Have you read the bible? Read the story of Gideon... God doesn't hedge his bets and require people to be strong to be used... he very specifically uses the weak to be great teachers so that there isn't confusionnthat he is the one giving them strength... he sent home most of Gideon's army specifically to show that THEY didn't win the war... they were just witnesses to God's victory.

Read Mark 2:1-17 again too... seriously. And psalms 28:7. You don't have to be strong... just acknowledge that YOU aren't, and let God be your strength.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't protect yourself too... but YOU protecting yourself is a last resort.

Thank you so much. God bless you. You gave me a lot to ponder.

 

[Nithavela]

Chances are that noone will try to kill you, and often, it's easier and safer to run away than to stand and fight.

I'd suggest that if you are scared of such situations, you visit self defense classes to train yourself not to freeze up in a crisis. Carrying around a gun is propably not going to make you much safer.

Also, don't get too paranoid, or you might decide on shooting someone who was following you, although that person had no bad intentions.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

Chances are that noone will try to kill you, and often, it's easier and safer to run away than to stand and fight.

I'd suggest that if you are scared of such situations, you visit self defense classes to train yourself not to freeze up in a crisis. Carrying around a gun is propably not going to make you much safer.

Also, don't get too paranoid, or you might decide on shooting someone who was following you, although that person had no bad intentions.

Yes, I think you are probably right. I don't want to shoot someone who is innocent.

 

[Nithavela]

Yes, I think you are probably right. I don't want to shoot someone who is innocent.

Also, it has been shown that having a gun in the house actually increases your and your co-inhabitants chance of dying by a gunshot wound.

The health risk of having a gun in the home

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

Also, it has been shown that having a gun in the house actually increases your and your co-inhabitants chance of dying by a gunshot wound.

The health risk of having a gun in the home

Really?

Well, it does scare me to think about a gun in the house.

I am going to read that link. Thank you for that.

 

[The Gregorian]

Thank you so much. God bless you. You gave me a lot to ponder.

I'm an idiot. If I happen to pass along a lesson he taught me at an applicable time, it's him showing off that he can even make ME make some sense sometimes.

 

[The Gregorian]

Also, it has been shown that having a gun in the house actually increases your and your co-inhabitants chance of dying by a gunshot wound.

The health risk of having a gun in the home

From a secular self defense aspect, a gun CAN help... but it guarantees the conflict WILL escalate to a life or death situation. Even in most break ins, people don't break in TO murder you... they break in to steal a TV or some liquor. They usually WANT to avoid you... but if you pop out with a gun SOMEONE is dying. Maybe everyone. Maybe just them... but definitely someone.

Or, you can avoid them also, be mildly inconvenienced and have to file an insurance claim.

 

[IAMABELIEVER1979]

I'm an idiot. If I happen to pass along a lesson he taught me at an applicable time, it's him showing off that he can even make ME make some sense sometimes.

I don't think you're an idiot. But I appreciate you sharing with me the things he taught you. God bless you.