Self-centeredness and Narcissism

[MorkandMindy]

Self-centeredness and Narcissism

The meaning of the term 'narcissist' is not set in stone, I'll describe what I consider the most useful application of the term and wait for what will undoubtedly be a better one from some of the posters here - I post to learn not just to sort out my own thinking


Post 1: Self-centeredness
My understanding is that there is a continuum of self-centeredness all the way from His Emptiness the Ajahn Brahm (??) to the salesman who believes the entire World revolves around him (well he is always in the center of the map on the Sat Nav).


Well I thought about it a bit more and realised that at the selfish end the totally fun loving party goer can be totally fun to be with because he /she knows what they like and really enjoys it. So oddly is His Emptiness (capitals mine), who like other Buddhist monks actually delights in the simple things of life such as the colours of a butterfly as much as getting really dirty mixing up cement, or covered in mud growing food. If the World is really all one then all are just different facets of it... (each to their own!).


So I concluded that self-centeredness is not a problem, it just prevents people with other problems from even noticing that others outside themselves are kinder or whatever the flaw is the self-absorbed person totally fails to notice.


Selfish is different, oddly only one of the many people totally wrapped up in themselves I know is selfish, that is takes more than their fair share as it were, that seems to be a different attribute.


So I'm not at this point convinced that self-centeredness is itself a problem - just pick your place on the continuum and enjoy it.


(I'm not sure I'm right about this; it is an opinion I formed yesterday so has yet to stand the test of other people's minds)

 

[MorkandMindy]

Narcissism I understand to be a strange mixture of beliefs about the self.


Start with
I would suggest one route to it, and possibly the most common, is to start with a self image of being among the best people in the World.

One of the several people I know with super inflated egos - the one who believes he did more than anyone else to prevent WW3 and who believes he will save the World from ecological collapse - is totally harmless because he is so happy to know himself, so pleased with the way his life has worked out, that he was born just in time to achieve the great things he believes he has achieved, and considers those around him must be wonderful just to get into the elite circles he moves in.

People with huge egos, and there are plenty, should not care what others think of them, in fact they are unlikely to notice, well to be accurate, to forget about it promptly, in keeping with cognitive dissonance.

It isn't the size of the ego that matters; it's what you do with it.



To get narcissism start with a huge ego then add...

In contrast the narcissist is a person who insists on praise from others and never seems to get enough. He is a person who started with an inflated self image that has been punctured and his top requirement is to get it re-inflated, constantly.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I think that's enough on what narcissism isn't, it's time for what narcissism is:


1. An unsubstantiated grandiose opinion of one's own importance or worth
+ plus
2. Living in a fantasy world where one is very much more successful than in the real world
+ plus
3. A desire to associate only with 'other' high success people
+ plus
4. Requires excessive admiration
+ plus
5. Expects favourable treatment compared with others
+ plus
6. Uses others without regard to the damage it does to them
+ plus
7. Total lack of empathy
+ plus
8. Is envious of others or thinks others are envious of him
+
9. Arrogant & treats others like dirt.


(this is abbreviated from a web page written by [SIZE=-1]Joanna M. Ashmun interpreting the DSM-IV definition of NPD)
[/SIZE]

 

[MorkandMindy]

(10) Very accomplished liars

How often is NPD missed by psychiatrists?

Apparently very often because narcissists are accomplished liars, or to put it differently, actually live in a false world and totally believe it themselves. I encounter one frequently and the only way you can tell he is lying is that he is talking, that's it, unless you also know the true version of what he is relating.


How many of these nine or ten indicators are required?

Some may not be visible but most are facets of what I understand to be the basic components - 1 and 4 - that if you find both of these then all the others will also exist.

Again diagnosis will be difficult as the NPD will tell a completely inaccurate story. Diagnoses may rely on others and while in a family therapy that may be possible, in the case of someone referred by a company it may not be feasible.

 

[dayhiker]

I can't say I've spent any time thinking about this topic. So wouldn't be wise for me to say anything about it.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Oh, you were one of those I was relying on for real life experience of NPD, but if you don't have any then don't go looking for it!

Well, you and Black Ribbon, Life, Miss-a, Dr. Stangelove who hasn't posted for ages, exit, and someone I haven't thought of who probably knows better than any of us, and of course Michelle.

So I looked back 4 pages and there in the middle was Michelle's thread on 'Dealing with Narcissists' with Blackribbon's mention of APD.


So, I thought, which one is it?

 

[MorkandMindy]

NPD
Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Is based around a belief of great superiority to others and the absolute need for others to acknowledge it.


APD
Antisocial Personality Disorder

Is a failure to adequately conform to the norms of society and to control one's impulses.

 

[Satine]

If it's any help, I was brought up by a person who I am certain has NPD. She will never acknowledge that she has it, because Ns never pay attention to what is wrong with themselves. But based on 30 years of observation, I swear she is.
One of the main problems with an N is that they have flaws just like any other person - but instead of dealing with them honestly they insist that the other person has them instead. Ns will often pick a Scapegoat to fulfill this role. They will often also have a Golden individual who can do no wrong (which is their payment for treating the N exactly as he/she wants to be treated. It comes at a price: the Golden's own independence.
Ns can be very charming indeed, and my... urgh, I'm not able to call her my mother any more. My egg donor is one of the more charming types. Ns can also be 'malignant' - they are the ones who don't want to charm you into accepting them unconditionally. Instead, they force you to do it.
And then there's a continuum of engulfing to ignoring. An N tends to have trouble distinguishing between self and other. If my egg donor is cold she'll tell me to put a jumper on. Okay, so that's a harmless example, but the potential of that same dynamic can be disastrous with different subject matters. Ignorers are precisely the opposite: they simply don't care about anyone else. I mean, really don't care.
Everyone has a certain level of narcissism, it's important to have it to be able to know what one wants and needs in order to live happily. But when it gets to extreme levels - PD levels - it can be very damaging for everyone they come into contact with. Especially the kids, who learn their entire sense of self from their parents.
The other thing about N is that an N can't live independently. In order to fulfil what they need as Ns, they need people around them to enable them. Spouses, siblings and children tend to be the worst affected by this. Many offspring of Ns find that their own enabling parents will not help them. After all, what kind of person does it take to marry an N and stay married to them? I would tell you now, but that's beginning to get off-topic. Suffice for now to say that he disgusts me with his sheer cowardice.

 

[MorkandMindy]

NPD and APD
both include no qualms at all about harming others - a lack of empathy, so both could be described as 'nasty'


The Difference
Can be seen in the 'super ego', that is at the social level:

NPD
has incorrectly placed himself in society, far too high up, and feels his demands for worship are fully justified.

The need for worship is however due to having a damaged self image, so the inconsistency is almost unavoidable but NPD damage control produces a false recollection of events to avoid the damaged self image at the most obvious level.

But the problem remains at a more profound level so the NPD is very affected by his social standing and anything that affects his reputation


APD
Hasn't adequately engaged with social norms resulting in inadequately restrained behaviour - this contrasts with the NPD who has incorrectly engaged with social norms and shows a lot of restraint though according to their inflated sense of status so it is often just not the right restraint.


An APD
1. Fails to conform to the norms and is therefore prone to being arrested, often repeatedly for the same acts.
2. Fails to restrain his / her reactions to irritation or to situation that anger him/ her.
3. Fails to see future consequences, therefore inadequate sense of safety both for self and others, to honour financial obligations, and to plan ahead.
4. Failure to restrain own emotions leads to inconsistent performance and behaviour at work.
5. Lack of remorse due to harm caused to others


TOP TRUMPS POINTS
on the mad / bad scale
APD lack of empathy is bad but injudicious behaviour is irrational and therefore counts as mad
NPD lack of empathy plus need to manipulate others into providing supplication and the need to harm others are all bad, the misfit of his beliefs about the World with reality lead to some amusing blunders, so he is two parts bad and one part mad.

NPD approx 1% of US population, bad 2, mad 1
APD approx 1% of female and 3% of male US population, bad 1 mad 1


FOOTNOTE
A bit more on NPD
The conflict between the high status an NPD believes he has and his poor actual performance still exists at a profound level despite his memory adjustments because most people with just the grandiose self images are happy with their wonderful selves and completely harmless whereas NPD are most definitely not and annoy people around them immensely.

NPD is considered untreatable because they lie constantly, forget anything that is inconvenient, and annoy therapists too.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

I have to come back to this thread later, I'm too tired to absorb all this right now lol

 

[MorkandMindy]

If it's any help, I was brought up by a person who I am certain has NPD. She will never acknowledge that she has it, because Ns never pay attention to what is wrong with themselves. But based on 30 years of observation, I swear she is.
One of the main problems with an N is that they have flaws just like any other person - but instead of dealing with them honestly they insist that the other person has them instead. Ns will often pick a Scapegoat to fulfill this role. They will often also have a Golden individual who can do no wrong (which is their payment for treating the N exactly as he/she wants to be treated. It comes at a price: the Golden's own independence.
Ns can be very charming indeed, and my... urgh, I'm not able to call her my mother any more. My egg donor is one of the more charming types. Ns can also be 'malignant' - they are the ones who don't want to charm you into accepting them unconditionally. Instead, they force you to do it.
And then there's a continuum of engulfing to ignoring. An N tends to have trouble distinguishing between self and other. If my egg donor is cold she'll tell me to put a jumper on. Okay, so that's a harmless example, but the potential of that same dynamic can be disastrous with different subject matters. Ignorers are precisely the opposite: they simply don't care about anyone else. I mean, really don't care.
Everyone has a certain level of narcissism, it's important to have it to be able to know what one wants and needs in order to live happily. But when it gets to extreme levels - PD levels - it can be very damaging for everyone they come into contact with. Especially the kids, who learn their entire sense of self from their parents.
The other thing about N is that an N can't live independently. In order to fulfil what they need as Ns, they need people around them to enable them. Spouses, siblings and children tend to be the worst affected by this. Many offspring of Ns find that their own enabling parents will not help them. After all, what kind of person does it take to marry an N and stay married to them? I would tell you now, but that's beginning to get off-topic. Suffice for now to say that he disgusts me with his sheer cowardice.

Wow, that's one nasty egg donor, Ajahn Brahm has many hour long talks on anger and happiness and all human feelings. It is good to listen to him in bed on a Saturday or Sunday morning or to get to sleep at night, he is the treat that gets me to bed early. If I don't get to sleep I hear him and that is wonderful, if I do then I get the sleep which is also wonderful. I'll venture to say AB has the cures for all the mental stresses of everyday life.


But the exact nature of the egg donor that is what I've been puzzling over for a while. NPD is a specific set of attitudes as is APD. The nastiness and bullying nature is evident, I'll have to agree she is likely to be an NPD but as NPDs get older they often learn to hide the symptoms.

The NPD I know is most obviously a bully, always expecting to win every conflict. The disorder though is what drives the bullying and makes it so frequent. That he constantly mentions how he was with top people in the company recently and talks incessantly about how wonderful he is and demands approval from others is a dead give away on the NPD.

But he is also doing normal workplace bullying which is the way to get rid of someone they know is better and thereby to secure their own job and promotion.

Your egg donor is showing nasty bullying behaviour, I'm just not clear on what is driving it. She may well be an NPD but rather than demanding worship is causing pain instead. That is even worse.