Self and Selfishness

[Jeshu]

Whoa, you took that in a completely different direction than the OP intended. I'm not condoning sexual immorality at all. The flesh is sin no matter what we do, I'm saying the root cause of all sin and crime is selfishness for you or someone you love. or something you love. Self

I don't think the root cause to sin is selfishness, rather selfishness is a symptom of sin. The root cause of sin is the lie, it is the lie that started the whole drama of sin, right at the beginning.

God is the truth there is no lie in His existential make-up, so untruth removes us from God and brings bad (spiritual) realities such as greed, hate, lust, dishonesty and selfishness into being

 

[Eudaimonist]

Whoa, you took that in a completely different direction than the OP intended. I'm not condoning sexual immorality at all. The flesh is sin no matter what we do, I'm saying the root cause of all sin and crime is selfishness for you or someone you love. or something you love. Self

Or someone you love? Okay, I'll give you points for recognizing that love is selfish. However, if love for others is selfishness, I don't want to be selfless.

I'm wondering, though, if you are advocating psychological egoism -- the view that all intentional human acts (even those for the sake of others) are motivated by "self", and that therefore selfless acts are actually impossible?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[grasping the after wind]

I don't think the root cause to sin is selfishness, rather selfishness is a symptom of sin. The root cause of sin is the lie, it is the lie that started the whole drama of sin, right at the beginning.

God is the truth there is no lie in His existential make-up, so untruth removes us from God and brings bad (spiritual) realities such as greed, hate, lust, dishonesty and selfishness into being

The lie was that one could be like god. What makes one want to believe that lie? Self centered and selfish motives. the lie does not have an independent existence it derives from us and from our desire to be god ourself.

 

[nomadictheist]

Actually covetousness, more than anything, was what caused the woman to believe the first lie.

Consider the account in Genesis. We are told that when she saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable for obtaining knowledge, she took some and ate it. Her sin arose from coveting that which was not hers to possess.

Do not be deceived. Sin is the root of all evil. When Cain thought to murder evil, God told him "Sin" was crouching at his door. Selfishness is but one extension of this, and really falls under the sin of "greed" more than anything

And, just for the record, selfishness is not defined merely as thinking of ones' self. If it were, then Jesus would have displayed selfishness when He prayed "if it is possible, take this cup from me."

Nowhere in the Bible will you find selfishness referenced as the root of sin. All sin springs from our "self," because the sin nature resides within our "self." But that does not equate to selfishness. If we believe the Bible, the Spirit of God also resides within our "self."

I have known parents who punished their children in very abusive ways because they believed (because of certain books they read at the time) that it was for the "good" of their children. There are plenty of people in the church who want to ignore certain portions of scripture because they believe it is for the "good" of others who don't want to follow those. There are plenty of people who never speak a word of their faith to people they come in contact with because they are concerned that the person will be upset and offended by it.

If we want to talk about the root of evil, we should do so from the Bible. Only by the Bible can we even begin to understand what evil is, and what the root of evil is.

 

[Dave-W]

The lie was that one could be like god. What makes one want to believe that lie?

The lie was that we were NOT like God; and the fruit could make us like God.

But "He created man in His Own Image." We were ALREADY like Him, probably in more ways than we can comprehend; all lost in the fall.

 

[Dave-W]

Consider the account in Genesis. We are told that when she saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable for obtaining knowledge, she took some and ate it. Her sin arose from coveting that which was not hers to possess.

Coveting is just an intense form of selfishness.

Do not be deceived. Sin is the root of all evil.

Um - sin IS evil. It is the root of itself?

And, just for the record, selfishness is not defined merely as thinking of ones' self. I

Really? How then should we define it?

I define it as allowing anything to benefit me more than it benefits someone else.

 

[grasping the after wind]

The lie was that we were NOT like God; and the fruit could make us like God.

But "He created man in His Own Image." We were ALREADY like Him, probably in more ways than we can comprehend; all lost in the fall.

That is not in keeping with the Genesis account. If we were like God why then could it be possible for us to fall? We are not like God we were created in the image and likeness of God. We were created God was not. We are capable of being deceptive and doing evil God is not. We are not like God we simply bear a resemblance to Him in an imperfect way. Just as a caricature of me is not like me it only resembles me in an imperfect way.

Actually covetousness, more than anything, was what caused the woman to believe the first lie.

Consider the account in Genesis. We are told that when she saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, good for food, and desirable for obtaining knowledge, she took some and ate it. Her sin arose from coveting that which was not hers to possess.

Eve does not covet the fruit because it looks good to eat. If it was then that is what the serpent would have used as a way to tempt her, but the serpent's temptation of Eve was very specific about what was desirable about the fruit and it wasn't the taste but the knowledge that would make her like God.

Genesis 3:1-5

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”

4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

[nomadictheist]

Coveting is just an intense form of selfishness.

Um - sin IS evil. It is the root of itself?

Really? How then should we define it?

I define it as allowing anything to benefit me more than it benefits someone else.

Well, in that case you had better stop believing in Jesus, because that will certainly benefit you more than it will benefit somebody who doesn't...

And you'd better not love anybody either, because the Bible also tells us that will benefit us more than others by covering a multitude of sins.

Also, be sure not to serve anybody, or suffer for Jesus name... wouldn't want your reward in heaven to be greater than anyone else's.

Instead of cutting the Bible references out, why don't you try to explain them? Either selfishness is not the mere thinking of oneself and the good of oneself, or Jesus was selfish to ask that the Father take away the burden of the cross if it was possible.

Selfish is defined as "lacking concern for others" and "thinking chiefly of one's own profit or interests." I present to you the evil of disbelief. This is the one and only evil that will prevent a relationship with God and the receiving of eternal life. I present also the evil of the occult. There are many occultists who have done horrible things because they believe they're doing it for other people.

As for sin, it's not true that sin=evil. Sinful actions are evil, but evil is far greater than that. Evil is everything that is opposed to God. Sin is acting in a way that is not in accordance with God's law. Of course, the sin nature, or sin, is also what resides in every human, enticing his heart to things not of God.

 

[nomadictheist]

That is not in keeping with the Genesis account. If we were like God why then could it be possible for us to fall? We are not like God we were created in the image and likeness of God. We were created God was not. We are capable of being deceptive and doing evil God is not. We are not like God we simply bear a resemblance to Him in an imperfect way. Just as a caricature of me is not like me it only resembles me in an imperfect way.



Eve does not covet the fruit because it looks good to eat. If it was then that is what the serpent would have used as a way to tempt her, but the serpent's temptation of Eve was very specific about what was desirable about the fruit and it wasn't the taste but the knowledge that would make her like God.

Genesis 3:1-5

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”

4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Why don't you go on to Genesis 3:6 - the verse I paraphrased?
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

The three reasons that I quoted are all right there in that verse. She saw that it was good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and desirable for wisdom/knowledge. The serpent focused on the third reason because he needed to overcome the fear of the promise of death (that eating the fruit would result in death).

 

[Dave-W]

Also, be sure not to serve anybody, or suffer for Jesus name... wouldn't want your reward in heaven to be greater than anyone else's.

That assumes I even get there. I am not making that assumption.

I do what I do and say what I say regardless. The truth is more important to me than whether I bask in luxury or burn in a blast furnace.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Why don't you go on to Genesis 3:6 - the verse I paraphrased?
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

The three reasons that I quoted are all right there in that verse. She saw that it was good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and desirable for wisdom/knowledge. The serpent focused on the third reason because he needed to overcome the fear of the promise of death (that eating the fruit would result in death).

I did not only go to the verse you paraphrased because I wanted the complete context not just the part you paraphrased. there is nothing in that verse that contradicts my interpretation but the previous verses do not line up with yours.

So she did not previously eat the fruit even though she would certainly be able to see that it was good for food and pleasant to the eye but only after the serpent told her it would make her like God which was not obvious by looking at it and the only part she thought about the fruit that was a lie as it was indeed good for food and pleasant to the eye, those things were truth but it did not make her like God because that was the lie. .

 

[nomadictheist]

I did not only go to the verse you paraphrased because I wanted the complete context not just the part you paraphrased. there is nothing in that verse that contradicts my interpretation but the previous verses do not line up with yours.

So she did not previously eat the fruit even though she would certainly be able to see that it was good for food and pleasant to the eye but only after the serpent told her it would make her like God which was not obvious by looking at it and the only part she thought about the fruit that was a lie as it was indeed good for food and pleasant to the eye, those things were truth but it did not make her like God because that was the lie. .

Regardless of what you say, the Bible says that there are 3 reasons that you ate the fruit. Look at the beginning of the serpent's narrative as he responds to Eve's reason for not eating the fruit...

"You shall not surely die..."

Yes. The first two factors are already there, so he has to break down her fear of God's word concerning what will happen if they eat of the fruit. That doesn't mean that they don't enter into why she ate of it. In fact, the Bible very specifically says that she ate of it for all those reasons - not just the last one. She coveted the knowledge or wisdom that she believed she could obtain by eating it, sure, but she also coveted it because, as the Bible says, it was pleasing to the eyes, and good for food.