• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Selective Service

If the draft were instituted, what would you do?

  • Go to War

  • Go to Canada

  • Go to Jail

  • I don't know


Results are only viewable after voting.

Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
I see. This despite the fact that taxes are a necessary part of life, and that they still occur in a democratic society. But hey, if you'd prefer an inferior lifestyle, who am I to complain?

I guess we'll just have to throw out yet another of Jesus' commandments, in order to accommodate your personal preference... :cool:
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
Originally posted by Evangelion
I see. This despite the fact that taxes are a necessary part of life, and that they still occur in a democratic society. But hey, if you'd prefer an inferior lifestyle, who am I to complain?

I guess we'll just have to throw out yet another of Jesus' commandments, in order to accommodate your personal preference... :cool:

I don't believe taxes are necessary.

Or government.
 
Upvote 0

fragmentsofdreams

Critical loyalist
Apr 18, 2002
10,358
431
21
CA
Visit site
✟36,328.00
Faith
Catholic
Originally posted by Knight
Well, there hasn't been a draft in this country for a little over thirty years&nbsp;I think. You've got nothing to worry about.

The possibility of a draft does not change the fact that the government claims the right to my life to use for its own purposes.
 
Upvote 0

fragmentsofdreams

Critical loyalist
Apr 18, 2002
10,358
431
21
CA
Visit site
✟36,328.00
Faith
Catholic
Originally posted by stillsmallvoice
People who object to military service can make their views known via the ballot box; this is the democratic way.

Be well!

ssv :wave:

In the US it is impossible for those who are directly affected by registration to voice their opinions through voting, since voting rights and registration both come at 18. Most of the time, they will register long before they have any say in the matter.

I think that the decision to risk the lives of citizens should be made in a more directly democratic way: by having those who are willing to risk their lives volunteer to do so.
 
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,902
6,580
64
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟359,247.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't believe taxes are necessary.

Or government.
Of course government isn't necessary.

Just ask anybody living in eastern France in the first half of the 6th century.
 
Upvote 0

Susan

退屈させた1 つ (bored one)
Feb 16, 2002
9,292
124
41
El Cajon, California, USA
Visit site
✟15,012.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Yeeew, don't even remind me.

I pray that the draft is never instituted here. I would vote against it, I would protest against it if I could be allowed to, and if it was nevertheless instituted :cry::cry::cry: I would not see my boyfriend until it is over because I would strongly urge him to stay in Canada until said draft was ended (I do not know if they can draft persons from there that move here, but just in case :cry: ) At least he could be safe. One other male friend of mine (not a boyfriend, don't worry) is seriously thinking of reenlisting despite my pleas for him not to. . .and another friend (don't worry again) is graduating from college this year and could be drafted :cry:

And if they get to the point where they are drafting women for anything, I'm out of here. Mexico, Canada, whereever they aren't bringing draft dodgers back from, I'm going. I'm a pacifist and will NEVER take up arms and kill human beings, not for any reason.
 
Upvote 0

Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
caley -

I don't believe taxes are necessary.

I see. So we all just "get along" somehow, without some sort of financial structure with which to maintain services and interact with other nations.

Fascinating...

Or government.

Perhaps you'd like to explain this to Jesus at the 2nd Advent? I'm sure he'll be very understanding :cool:
 
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,902
6,580
64
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟359,247.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm sure glad that these attitudes were not as common 60 years ago as they seem to be here.
No kidding.

I can see the scenario now if they had been:

"All right, boys and girls, we will now stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance: Heute wir Regeln in Deutschland, und Morgen die ganze Welt. Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer! Seig Heil, Seig Heil, Seig Heil! Und wir alle sagt: Heil Hitler!"
 
Upvote 0

Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
Two corrections:
  • The Germans were never in danger of invading the US.
  • America entered the war late (as usual), and arrived just in time to clean up the mess after everybody else had done the donkey work.
It's easy to play the conquering hero when (a) your country was never actually in the firing line to begin with, and (b) your contribution to the war effort consists of little more than pushing over a punch-drunk giant.

Oh, and just for the record, scooping the pool with an unconscionable theft of war reparations is not the same as winning a war. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu
Feb 5, 2002
21,902
6,580
64
By the shores of Gitchee-Goomee
✟359,247.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Two corrections:

The Germans were never in danger of invading the US.
No, and a large part of the reason why was because the Russians were carrying the brunt of the war in the east. And the reason the Russians were able to do that was because they were receiving massive amounts of Lend-Lease material that came from.......the United States.
America entered the war late (as usual), and arrived just in time to clean up the mess after everybody else had done the donkey work.
Like defending Australia from Japanese inavasion?
It's easy to play the conquering hero when (a) your country was never actually in the firing line to begin with
As I recall, America's purpose was not that of conquering hero, but liberator.
and (b) your contribution to the war effort consists of little more than pushing over a punch-drunk giant.
Somehow, I sort of get the vague impression that three years and 1,079,162 casualties isn't exactly "pushing over a punch-drunk giant".
Oh, and just for the record, scooping the pool with an unconscionable theft of war reparations is not the same as winning a war.
Define?
 
Upvote 0

Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
Wolseley -

No, and a large part of the reason was because the Russians were carrying the brunt of the war in the east. And the reason the Russians were able to do that was because of massive amounts of Lend-Lease material that came from.......the United States.

Like I said - everybody else did the donkey work.

quote:
America entered the war late (as usual), and arrived just in time to clean up the mess after everybody else had done the donkey work.

Like defending Australia from Japanese inavasion?

But you never "defended Australia from Japanese invasion" in the first place. The Japanese got as far as Darwin, and suddenly realised that the invasion of a country which consists of 70% desert is a logistical nightmare - especially when you've just landed at the top, and now have (x), 000 miles of wasteland to traverse before you even get a glimpse of the enemy. Japan simply wasn't capable of stretching her war front that far. It was this logistical problem which precluded Japan's halting attempt to invade Australia. America had nothing to do with it.

However, recognising the potential for a closer encounter (should the Japanese rally their forces at the eleventh hour), Curtin neatly blackmailed America into entering the South Pacific theatre with his now-famous words:

  • Australia is the last bastion between the west coast of America and the Japanese. If Australia goes, the Americas are wide open.
It was a message that America was powerless to resist.

As I recall, America's purpose was not that of conquering hero, but liberator.

You recall incorrectly. America didn't "liberate" anyone (except, perhaps, the Jews from the concentration camps.)

Somehow, I sort of get the vague impression that three years and 1,079,162 casualties isn't exactly "pushing over a punch-drunk giant".

America suffered roughly 405, 399 casualties in WWII, not 1, 079, 162. Meanwhile, the Ruskies lost something in the order of 7.2 million, and the Chinese 2.2 million.

quote:
Oh, and just for the record, scooping the pool with an unconscionable theft of war reparations is not the same as winning a war.

Define?

Mea culpa. I was thinking of WWI. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
A refutation of Matthew Slick's Should a Christian go to war?

We begin:

This question has caused a lot of division in the body of Christ. Should a Christian go to war where he might kill other people when the Bible says to "turn the other cheek" (Luke 6:28)? Is it right to do war against others or does the Bible forbid it?

One of the most interesting things about Slick's little article, is that he begins by quoting the words of Christ, but never actually returns to discuss them. He makes no attempt to reconcile Christ's teachings with the main body of his thesis.

This is a problem, and it remains unsolved.

War is a state of declared, open, and armed conflict between two or more nations. It is sometimes undertaken in self defense as when the U.S. entered WWII as a result of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor. Other times, however, nations unjustly go to war to take spoils from other countries. Murder, on the other hand, is an unlawful taking of life and is always wrong. When nations go to war, it is declared lawful by the countries going to war -- sometimes for moral reasons and other times for immoral reasons. Therefore, and immoral war could be considered a form of murder where a moral war could be in self defense. But not all war is wrong.

This merely a brief discussion of what war is, and the circumstances under which it is pursued. With theology absent from the equation, there is nothing to debate here.

It is difficult to determine when war would be a righteous endeavor given that leaders of nations are not Christian and could easily have ungodly reasons for going to war. Nevertheless, war is an unfortunate reality in this world and it causes great destruction, misery, and loss of life.

Agreed.

It should be avoided if possible and undertaken only as a last resort.

If Slick is addressing Christians here, then I disagree. On this side of the 1,000-year reign, the quote above can only have relevance to secular society. It has no relevance to a Christian.

The Bible teaches that we have the right to self defense

*snip*

Here Slick rashly quotes from the Law of Moses - a law which Christ's teachings clearly transcended. His OT proof texts have a great deal of relevance to OT Jews, but absolutely no applicability to modern Christians.

Furthermore, Christians are instructed to be in subjection to the governing authorities whose establishment is from God.

I agree with this.

This establishment has the right to declare war and to punish its citizenry, even by capital punishment.

False. Nowhere does the Bible say that "This establishment has the right to declare war and to punish its citizenry, even by capital punishment." All it tells us is that this is what the secular establishment does. References to "rights" (itself a concept borrowed from the Enlightenment), are notable by absence.

The language of the Bible is not the language of rights, but of responsibilities. Things such as "human rights" exist only in our minds; they are secular human constructs, with absolutely no tangible correlation in objective reality.

"1Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil," (Rom. 13:1-4).

"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right," (1 Peter 2:13).

I agree with all of this - but it has no bearing on the topic at hand. Nowhere are we told here that it is a Christian's duty to bear arms on behalf of a secular (or religious!) government. In fact, the message of the NT is a message of uncompromising disestablishmentarianism - a message that was constantly reaffirmed by the earliest Christians themselves, both in principle and practice.

Finally, notice that when some soldiers approached John the Baptist and inquired about repentance. John did not tell them to stop being soldiers, but to do their jobs properly, honestly.

*snip*

Slick might have a point if the soldiers were Christians. Unfortunately for him, they were not.

From all of this, we can see that going to war is not wrong it itself and that a Christian can go to war under the right circumstances.

In fact, we see nothing of the kind. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

Evangelion

<b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>
caley -

I could present a good Biblical defense for dodging the draft.

Could you? But why would you bother to do so in the first place?

The Bible teaches that Christians are to be conscientious objectors. That's not the same as "dodging the draft."

In fact, it's a great deal less pleasant. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

caley

Christian Anarchist
Oct 29, 2002
718
12
46
Fargo, ND
Visit site
✟1,081.00
Faith
Protestant
Originally posted by Evangelion
caley -



Could you? But why would you bother to do so in the first place?

The Bible teaches that Christians are to be conscientious objectors. That's not the same as "dodging the draft."

In fact, it's a great deal less pleasant. :cool:

Actually, I would attempt conscientious objector status first.&nbsp; I guess I forgot to include that in the poll.&nbsp; But failing that, I would rather go to jail in protest than kill another human being in the name of imperialism.
 
Upvote 0