Seeking A Solid Response

[Ironhold]

I've brought this up several times before, including here on CF, and it's rare for me to get a solid response either way.

So, here it goes.

The incident in question happened about 10 years ago.

A used to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what most people know as the "Mormons". I was one of several people conversing with her on an online forum dedicated to discussing religion.

During the conversation, she name-dropped the author whose works brought her out of the church. This caused a number of people - myself included - to be rather alarmed. The author in question is known by both Mormon and non-Mormon alike to be so agenda-driven that he's more than willing to lie if it achieves his ends. That's right: the author proclaims himself a "Good Christian", yet it takes minimal effort to find outright lies in his works. Basically, he's willing to use the Devil's tactics in God's name.

When we explained this to her, she was alarmed and said that she would take things under consideration.

A week later, she came back. She had investigated the author and his works from both sides, and found that his material was indeed wanting. Based on this, she was going to investigate the LDS faith a second time over.

In response to this, Minister P - yes, he had "Minister" in his user title and had been claiming to be the minister of a Baptist congregation - fired off a scathing open letter to B, A's husband. In the letter, Minister P literally declared that if B did't use "any means necessary" (direct quote) to prevent A from re-joining the LDS faith, then he would be a failure as both a husband and a Christian.

A made one final response a day or two after the letter was posted. As she explained, B was just as furious about the letter as A was. Neither person wanted to be a member of any church that would have Minister P as a minister, and so this incident made their minds up: A and B were, indeed, going to become Mormon.

I've brought this up in an effort to explain how overly-aggressive and overly-hostile ministers can do more harm than good, yet if I'm not being ignored I'm having people try to explain how in their eyes Minister P didn't do anything wrong.

Are Minister P's actions in keeping with what is acceptable in mainline Christianity?

Yes or no?

 

[“Paisios”]

I've brought this up several times before, including here on CF, and it's rare for me to get a solid response either way.

So, here it goes.

The incident in question happened about 10 years ago.

A used to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what most people know as the "Mormons". I was one of several people conversing with her on an online forum dedicated to discussing religion.

During the conversation, she name-dropped the author whose works brought her out of the church. This caused a number of people - myself included - to be rather alarmed. The author in question is known by both Mormon and non-Mormon alike to be so agenda-driven that he's more than willing to lie if it achieves his ends. That's right: the author proclaims himself a "Good Christian", yet it takes minimal effort to find outright lies in his works. Basically, he's willing to use the Devil's tactics in God's name.

When we explained this to her, she was alarmed and said that she would take things under consideration.

A week later, she came back. She had investigated the author and his works from both sides, and found that his material was indeed wanting. Based on this, she was going to investigate the LDS faith a second time over.

In response to this, Minister P - yes, he had "Minister" in his user title and had been claiming to be the minister of a Baptist congregation - fired off a scathing open letter to B, A's husband. In the letter, Minister P literally declared that if B did't use "any means necessary" (direct quote) to prevent A from re-joining the LDS faith, then he would be a failure as both a husband and a Christian.

A made one final response a day or two after the letter was posted. As she explained, B was just as furious about the letter as A was. Neither person wanted to be a member of any church that would have Minister P as a minister, and so this incident made their minds up: A and B were, indeed, going to become Mormon.

I've brought this up in an effort to explain how overly-aggressive and overly-hostile ministers can do more harm than good, yet if I'm not being ignored I'm having people try to explain how in their eyes Minister P didn't do anything wrong.

Are Minister P's actions in keeping with what is acceptable in mainline Christianity?

Yes or no?

I don’t see that Minister P’s actions are any different than the author whose personal agenda changed A’s mind initially. Lies can deceive in either way. Only the truth of Christ and His presence can save...so “any means” often involves coercion, lies and deceit. I hope that is not what was meant, but it sounds like how you present it.

 

[Paidiske]

As described, I would say no, not acceptable on a number of levels.

1. Both being members of an online forum doesn't give "Minister P" any pastoral relationship with A and B. (If it did, y'all better start considering yourselves under my pastoral authority. )

2. Even if "Minister P" felt a pastoral responsibility within this situation, dealing with it by open letter is the wrong approach. It's a breach of privacy, and it's humiliating.

3. Suggesting that B is a failure as a husband and a Christian if his wife does such-and-such (or if he doesn't use "any means necessary" to prevent it) suggests that it is B's job to control his wife or dictate her spiritual life; which is very very dangerous indeed.

So, all in all, no. Not okay, and I can totally understand the negative reaction.

Is that a solid response?

 

[Ironhold]

Is that a solid response?

Yes. Thanks.

 

[Ironhold]

I don’t see that Minister P’s actions are any different than the author whose personal agenda changed A’s mind initially. Lies can deceive in either way. Only the truth of Christ and His presence can save...so “any means” often involves coercion, lies and deceit. I hope that is not what was meant, but it sounds like how you present it.

It's how just about everyone who read it at the time interpreted it.

 

[Tigger45]

Mormonism crumbles on it’s own merits. Why use lies when the truth will suffice.

 

[Jane_Doe]

As described, I would say no, not acceptable on a number of levels.

1. Both being members of an online forum doesn't give "Minister P" any pastoral relationship with A and B. (If it did, y'all better start considering yourselves under my pastoral authority. )

2. Even if "Minister P" felt a pastoral responsibility within this situation, dealing with it by open letter is the wrong approach. It's a breach of privacy, and it's humiliating.

3. Suggesting that B is a failure as a husband and a Christian if his wife does such-and-such (or if he doesn't use "any means necessary" to prevent it) suggests that it is B's job to control his wife or dictate her spiritual life; which is very very dangerous indeed.

So, all in all, no. Not okay, and I can totally understand the negative reaction.

Is that a solid response?

(I hope @Ironhold doesn't mind me stepping in here and thanking @Paidiske for this post)

@Paidiske, I'm an LDS lady married to an Evangelical/non-denom guy. I cannot tell you how many times my husband and I have been subjected to behavior such as that described in the OP here. I have literally seen Creedal Christian pastors condone lying about me/my beliefs or order my husband to "you need to get your wife in line and make her a Christian". We've also been subjected to this behavior from his Evangelical family members. It has MAJORLY damaged a lot of relationships and caused both my husband and I to resent certain people/groups.

Sadly, when I talk about this on CF or other Creedal venues.... like described in the OP I usually find people defending the pastors' actions or side-stepping things (causing more resentment for me). Seldom do I see a Creedal Christian acknowledge things and give a solid response such as you have.

THANK YOU!

May Christ ever be with you.

 

[Ironhold]

But yeah. Stories of this kind of nonsense are legion. Go to just about any LDS congregation and you'll hear stories of people who had ministers either calling for pitchforks & torches or engaging in shocking behavior towards anyone who was even close to the LDS faith, let alone actual members.

It's pretty bad, but whenever we bring it up we either have people call us liars, deflect by going "what about North Korea" or another such dodge, or trying to argue that we somehow "deserve" whatever is inflicted up on us... and yes, I've seen people argue that we "deserve" to die for being Mormon.

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm an LDS lady married to an Evangelical/non-denom guy.

From what I have seen and read, marriage is a big part of the LDS religion. Did you have an LDS ceremony and are there further ceremonies that require both husband and wife?

 

[Jane_Doe]

From what I have seen and read, marriage is a big part of the LDS religion. Did you have an LDS ceremony and are there further ceremonies that require both husband and wife?

LDS also do acknowledge civil weddings. The religious ceremony does also exist, but LDS aren't going to pretend that civilly married couples aren't married.

 

[John 1720]

I've brought this up several times before, including here on CF, and it's rare for me to get a solid response either way.

So, here it goes.

The incident in question happened about 10 years ago.

A used to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what most people know as the "Mormons". I was one of several people conversing with her on an online forum dedicated to discussing religion.

During the conversation, she name-dropped the author whose works brought her out of the church. This caused a number of people - myself included - to be rather alarmed. The author in question is known by both Mormon and non-Mormon alike to be so agenda-driven that he's more than willing to lie if it achieves his ends. That's right: the author proclaims himself a "Good Christian", yet it takes minimal effort to find outright lies in his works. Basically, he's willing to use the Devil's tactics in God's name.

When we explained this to her, she was alarmed and said that she would take things under consideration.

A week later, she came back. She had investigated the author and his works from both sides, and found that his material was indeed wanting. Based on this, she was going to investigate the LDS faith a second time over.

In response to this, Minister P - yes, he had "Minister" in his user title and had been claiming to be the minister of a Baptist congregation - fired off a scathing open letter to B, A's husband. In the letter, Minister P literally declared that if B did't use "any means necessary" (direct quote) to prevent A from re-joining the LDS faith, then he would be a failure as both a husband and a Christian.

A made one final response a day or two after the letter was posted. As she explained, B was just as furious about the letter as A was. Neither person wanted to be a member of any church that would have Minister P as a minister, and so this incident made their minds up: A and B were, indeed, going to become Mormon.

I've brought this up in an effort to explain how overly-aggressive and overly-hostile ministers can do more harm than good, yet if I'm not being ignored I'm having people try to explain how in their eyes Minister P didn't do anything wrong.

Are Minister P's actions in keeping with what is acceptable in mainline Christianity?

Yes or no?

No, coercion is never the answer and certainly using falsehoods to win someone to the faith undermines the faith that was delivered to us from Jesus to His Apostles and to us. We come to orthodoxy by worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. This truth must be understood through the lens of Apostolic testimony and teachings handed down to us in the New Testament. This is foundational to the Christian faith and Jesus put His stamp on it in His High Priestly Prayer.

• John 4:23-24 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
• Jhn 17:19-22 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
  I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

Their word (eyewitness/contemporary) is recorded in the New Testament - not the book of Mormon. That seems pretty clear!
In Christ, Patrick

 

[Uber Genius]

I've brought this up several times before, including here on CF, and it's rare for me to get a solid response either way.

So, here it goes.

The incident in question happened about 10 years ago.

A used to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what most people know as the "Mormons". I was one of several people conversing with her on an online forum dedicated to discussing religion.

During the conversation, she name-dropped the author whose works brought her out of the church. This caused a number of people - myself included - to be rather alarmed. The author in question is known by both Mormon and non-Mormon alike to be so agenda-driven that he's more than willing to lie if it achieves his ends. That's right: the author proclaims himself a "Good Christian", yet it takes minimal effort to find outright lies in his works. Basically, he's willing to use the Devil's tactics in God's name.

When we explained this to her, she was alarmed and said that she would take things under consideration.

A week later, she came back. She had investigated the author and his works from both sides, and found that his material was indeed wanting. Based on this, she was going to investigate the LDS faith a second time over.

In response to this, Minister P - yes, he had "Minister" in his user title and had been claiming to be the minister of a Baptist congregation - fired off a scathing open letter to B, A's husband. In the letter, Minister P literally declared that if B did't use "any means necessary" (direct quote) to prevent A from re-joining the LDS faith, then he would be a failure as both a husband and a Christian.

A made one final response a day or two after the letter was posted. As she explained, B was just as furious about the letter as A was. Neither person wanted to be a member of any church that would have Minister P as a minister, and so this incident made their minds up: A and B were, indeed, going to become Mormon.

I've brought this up in an effort to explain how overly-aggressive and overly-hostile ministers can do more harm than good, yet if I'm not being ignored I'm having people try to explain how in their eyes Minister P didn't do anything wrong.

Are Minister P's actions in keeping with what is acceptable in mainline Christianity?

Yes or no?

Wrong question!

How people behave has no impact on truth or falsehood of their claims.

There are good, reputable, scholarly accounts about where Mormonism differs dramatically from the claims of orthodox Christianity. If one was interested it would be easy to investigate whether these claims were true.

Joseph Smith was accused of scamming people out of their money, adultery, and murder and yet as a Mormon you didn't take these character flaws, if true, into account. If we let this be about character then all Mormons are on shaky ground. Fortunately, this approach of focusing on character of the person making the claims rather than the truth of their premises, and the soundness of their arguments has been known to be fallacious for thousands of years. It is called ad hominem.

 

[Bumble Bee]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been cleaned. Please keep conversation to the original topic of the thread and avoid personal remarks.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Ironhold]

Wrong question!

How people behave has no impact on truth or falsehood of their claims.

So you'd be cool if one day someone decided that Christianity needed to be spread with the sword?

Joseph Smith was accused of scamming people out of their money, adultery, and murder and yet as a Mormon you didn't take these character flaws, if true, into account.

You presume I'm ignorant of the allegations.

I've been dealing with the counter-cult for the better part of 20 years now.

The vast majority of allegations I've seen have been proven false.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Wrong question!

How people behave has no impact on truth or falsehood of their claims.

The question was whether or not the behavior described in the OP is acceptable in accordance to that person's faith. Not whether or not that person's faith is the Truth.

Again, I am a person who actively lives in a station like the OP described. I'm quick to call out when people act wrongly, regardless of that person's faith. I don't stand for manipulation or lies from anyone. I am happy when I hear of other Christians likewise willing to call out such wrong behavior-- even when it comes from someone sitting on the same pew. I have seen such Christian behavior in this thread and celebrated it.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have also ran into folks who aren't willing to call out manipulation/lies when it comes from someone in their own pew-- because that person believes 'Truth'. That... I am greatly saddened from those encounters.

 

[Uber Genius]

So you'd be cool if one day someone decided that Christianity needed to be spread with the sword?



You presume I'm ignorant of the allegations.

I've been dealing with the counter-cult for the better part of 20 years now.

The vast majority of allegations I've seen have been proven false.

To your first point just read the second line! The context is truth of false. You changed the context even though it was clear that TRUTH DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM!

If Adolph Hitler said 2+ 2 = 4 or Abraham Lincoln was the best American President he would still be correct see spite his moral failings so let's stop with propaganda and focus on the truth of the claims and does Mormonism align with orthodox Christianity.

I'm not making a claim about Joseph Smith's character, I'm asking why you used an ad hominem to eliminate the first point and yet did not use and ad hominem when accepting the claims of MORMONISM! This seems terribly inconsistent and strains credulity.

It is possible that Joseph Smith lacked the character reported in history and yet his claims about Mormonism are true.

Please look up ad hominem fallacy before hastily replying with straw men or red herrings.

 

[Uber Genius]

The question was whether or not the behavior described in the OP is acceptable in accordance to that person's faith. Not whether or not that person's faith is the Truth.

Again, I am a person who actively lives in a station like the OP described. I'm quick to call out when people act wrongly, regardless of that person's faith. I don't stand for manipulation or lies from anyone. I am happy when I hear of other Christians likewise willing to call out such wrong behavior-- even when it comes from someone sitting on the same pew. I have seen such Christian behavior in this thread and celebrated it.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have also ran into folks who aren't willing to call out manipulation/lies when it comes from someone in their own pew-- because that person believes 'Truth'. That... I am greatly saddened from those encounters.

It misses the point (is a fake question)!

Ask a question that is so obviously true no one would ever consider another answer (AKA leading questions), "Isn't it wrong to mislead someone?"

The trick is to shame them into an emotional response without ever asking if their claim is true.

Some are tricked, I'm not.

1 John 4:1 is clear. The attempt to sully the character of the person wrong about Mormonism was not specified or examined. Just "anti-Mormon pastor bad," "Seeker was manipulate by bad pastor."

While possible I have worked with many cult groups and have multiple books on Mormonism and the jury is in. I know of no scholars that find that Mormonism is orthodox, or even heterodox!

While you can impugn the character of the person writing the book, or recommending that book, one can go to reputable scholars and find the same claims that Mormonism is not a Christian religion or even close to it.

And of coarse everyone feels emotion hearing the story!

Even if it is true, so what? It doesn't change the facts that Mormonism rejects Christianity.

Further given that rejecting Christ and becoming Mormon is following a false prophet as 1 John warns about the Pastor should have helped the person see the false claims and "tested the spirit," of Mormonism.

So there is so much good material no need to do anything but compare Christology. But soteriology, eschatology, harmartiology, anthropology, pnuematology are radically different as well.

So A. The "story," sounds suspect based on my experience of many dozens of pastors and B. A pastor that uses all means to save someone from deception and spiritual death might be excuse their own deceptive means. I would gladly lie to someone to keep them from a worker evil like committing suicide.

I'm not justifying actions here. Just calling out the elephant in the room!

Is Mormonism true?

 

[Jane_Doe]

It misses the point (is a fake question)!

Ask a question that is so obviously true no one would ever consider another answer (AKA leading questions), "Isn't it wrong to mislead someone?"

And yet in my life I deal with people who DO encourage misleading and manipulation such as described in the OP. This crap happens, and needs to be addressed. Refusing to acknowledge the problem exists and address it only encourage this bad behavior.

Again, I applaud the Christians on here who are willing to call wrong doing wrong wherever it might be found. Sadly, not everyone is like that.

So A. The "story," sounds suspect based on my experience of many dozens of pastors and B. A pastor that uses all means to save someone from deception and spiritual death might be excuse their own deceptive means. I would gladly lie to someone to keep them from a worker evil like committing suicide.

I'm not justifying actions here.

Actually, this quote actually sounds very much like you're justifying lying to keep someone from being LDS. Are you? (I could very well misunderstanding tone here).

 

[Ironhold]

It misses the point (is a fake question)!

Ask a question that is so obviously true no one would ever consider another answer (AKA leading questions), "Isn't it wrong to mislead someone?"

1 Corinthians 13 -

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The Apostle Paul noted that any man who speaks without charity, regardless of how much actual truth they have, is just speaking noise.

We've seen far too many mainline Christian pastors - like the one I mentioned in the beginning - who fail this test. Yet you, and others, are telling us that no matter how much hate or how little the ministers reflect the light of Christ, they aren't doing anything wrong.

 

[Uber Genius]

1 Corinthians 13 -

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The Apostle Paul noted that any man who speaks without charity, regardless of how much actual truth they have, is just speaking noise.

We've seen far too many mainline Christian pastors - like the one I mentioned in the beginning - who fail this test. Yet you, and others, are telling us that no matter how much hate or how little the ministers reflect the light of Christ, they aren't doing anything wrong.

You didn't engage the 1 John 4 passage about guarding against false prophets!

A pastor is called to inform his church of false religions posing as Christian.

According to Joseph Smith:

Jesus is not eternal
God the father is not eternal
There is no Trinity
Jesus is a separate God from God the father
We do not enter into a relationship with God through grace but by works

The list goes on and on.

Joseph Smith said all denominations were false!

So he, not the pastor, is trying to lead people to Mormonism and away from Christianity.

Joseph Smith was supposedly a murderer and plan attack on those who exposed his lies. Including burning printing presses of people exposing his lies.

So it seems oddly hypocritical to be lodging this complaint.

But I am on record saying we don't judge the truth or falsehood of any claims by the character of the one making the claims. Joseph Smith could be a lying murderer and yet his claims that all Christians ahead it wrong and he had a new revelation could be true. The case for each claim needs to be examined! That hardly seems like a contraversial suggestion.