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Secular Objective Morality

Philosopher King

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Perhaps one of the most frequent denounciations of freethought philosophies stem from the conception that freethinkers lack any commandments, divinely inspired system of moral laws, and in turn, any moral compass. There is a widespread notion that all secularists thereby embrace moral relativism, which many religionists credit with the moral decay of society. The issue of moral relativism is indeed debatable, but there can be no question that many freethinkers subscribe to an objective moral system. I for one, believe that moral principles are natural and necesarry, a simple part of evolution. Just as there are physcial laws which govern our universe, there are moral laws which govern, or guide humanity. These principles are all discoverable through reason. I believe in an objective reality which exists independently of human thoughts or feelings, that it is our duty to reconcile our beliefs, or perceptions of reality, with true reality,noumena; and to be rational beings. In my opinion, to know reality is to know morality. Therefore all which is opposed to exploring the depths of one's reason would be considered immoral, for it prevents one from discovering and understanding the nature of morality. But, away from my amateur opinions there are a great deal of other existing philosophies which hold moral absolutes.

Utilitarianism- This system states that an action's morality is derived from the good it produces. For instance, if telling a lie benefits 100 people, while telling the truth benefits only 50, the lie would be the ethical course of action. Invented by Jeremy Bentham in the 18th century, and popularized by Mill in the 19th, I suppose this could be considered practical morality.

Deontology- Directly opposed to consequentialist morality is deontology, a philosophy which holds that an action is moral in itself, regardless of the results it produces. One who upholds this ethical system would never tell a lie, even to save a life, for that implies lying is a morally acceptable action for all to engage in. Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative states that one should act only in such a way that they would also will upon all else; and to treat humanity as an and end not a means.

Objectivism- Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism(big O, not to be confused with objectivism in other fields) espouses the virtue of selfishness, which promotes rational self-interest. This basically means that adopting one's one life as one's ultimate ethical purpose is a morally respctable acheivment.

There are others as well, but I simply wanted to expose people to different moral philosophies and show that, like Christians, Freethinkers come in many forms. What are your thoughts?
 
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Well, I actually agree with alot of what Ayn Rand's Objectivism states. While it is about being selfish, thats not a bad thing at all. All that states is that you shouldn't depend on others to get you through something, and you should work to make yourself a better person for your own sake.

I liked Objectivism when I was a christian, but I wasn't able to express it, as I felt it went against what I believed at the time. But now, I actually hold a bit of this inside, using it to make choices in my life. Why would I sit and do nothing, when I could go out and make something of myself for the sake of my own happiness? ^.^
 
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Philosopher King said:
Objectivism- Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism(big O, not to be confused with objectivism in other fields) espouses the virtue of selfishness, which promotes rational self-interest. This basically means that adopting one's one life as one's ultimate ethical purpose is a morally respctable acheivment.

That's right. I think the term "selfishness" is a bit confusing for many people, but it's as simple as saying that a rational, productive, and self-respecting life is what one should strive for, and that no mistreatment of others is ever necessary to achieve this. Objectivism has also been growing in some ways by being more confident in espousing its benevolent aspects than Ayn Rand did (e.g. the work done by David Kelley, Tibor Machan, and the Fellowship of Reason in advocating the kindness and friendliness that is also part of the rational life.)
 
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thomas100

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My question about non-theistic moral systems is why everybody wants to be moral ? What is it about humans that lead them to want to categorise things as right and wrong ? It's fascinating to me that many humanists and atheists want to hold onto these notions even though at root they can't escape a completely naturalistic view of the universe in which atoms are just doing what atoms do, including every atom that forms their conciousness and mind. How in that universe can there be right and wrong. There is only "what will be".
 
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jayem

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As a practical matter, moral "absolutes" can only exist as fairly general statements. Human affairs are so convoluted, that no system of specific rules can possibly be valid under any and all circumstances. I agree that morals can have an objective basis. The real reason we study history is to examine the consequences of moral choices in the past. And combining this with what science can tell us about human psychology gives us a good, objective foundation on which an ethical system can be built. But if "absolute" moral precepts exist, they can only be very non-specific: "act wisely;" or "be courageous;" or, what a theist may claim as an absolute, "obey God." So general as to have no practical value.
 
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thomas100

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Hey Jayem, nice post. I think that the topic of "are there any absolute moral precepts" is different from the topic "is there an absolute morality". That is just because it is tough to write down an absolute moral precept for each and every situation doesn't mean that in each of those situations there isn't a set of absolutely right and absolutely wrong actions. When I say absolutely right and wrong I mean that it is not subject to personal preference.
 
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David Gould

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From a moral perspective, why should we value rational thought over irrational thought? Where does the should come from? You have to end up saying, 'We should because X'
And then the question is, from a moral perspective why should we value X?

There can be no objective morality. This is because the supposedly objective first principle can only be an axiom. And axioms do not have reasons. So therefore we end up with having to value X from a moral perspective for no reason.
 
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kedaman

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David Gould said:
From a moral perspective, why should we value rational thought over irrational thought? Where does the should come from? You have to end up saying, 'We should because X'
And then the question is, from a moral perspective why should we value X?

There can be no objective morality. This is because the supposedly objective first principle can only be an axiom. And axioms do not have reasons. So therefore we end up with having to value X from a moral perspective for no reason.
It doesn't come from anywhere, morality has no reason. Take anything you value, and ask why? Either you end up with a first principle, or you'll go on asking why in infinite regress, and you realise its pointless.
 
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David Gould

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kedaman said:
It doesn't come from anywhere, morality has no reason. Take anything you value, and ask why? Either you end up with a first principle, or you'll go on asking why in infinite regress, and you realise its pointless.

Exactly. Something we call good is actually at base 'good-for-no-reason'. Likewise with evil.
 
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Why does morality/immorality have to be a binary choice? I have always seen actions falling into three categories: moral, immoral, and neutral.

For example, you go to a restaurant. Paying your bill is a moral act. Skipping out on the bill is an immoral act. Ordering ranch dressing on your salad is a neutral act.
 
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thomas100

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David Gould said:
From a moral perspective, why should we value rational thought over irrational thought? Where does the should come from? You have to end up saying, 'We should because X'
And then the question is, from a moral perspective why should we value X?

There can be no objective morality. This is because the supposedly objective first principle can only be an axiom. And axioms do not have reasons. So therefore we end up with having to value X from a moral perspective for no reason.

Yes, we have to value X from a moral perspective for no reason, from your point of view. Which I think is a problem that leads to you having to defend relative morality, because you have no source for absolute morality.

From my point of view the "because X" is, put simplistically, "because God is good and said it was good".
 
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David Gould

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thomas100 said:
Yes, we have to value X from a moral perspective for no reason, from your point of view. Which I think is a problem that leads to you having to defend relative morality, because you have no source for absolute morality.

From my point of view the "because X" is, put simplistically, "because God is good and said it was good".

And why should we value what God says? What basis does that precept have?
 
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David Gould

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thomas100 said:
Doesn't "because God is good and said it was good" answer your question ?

No, because it does not explain how you know that God is good. I suspect that it is because he told you, and that just leads us back to the previous question: Why should we value what God says?
 
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thomas100

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Well for the purposes of this thread let's say that I looked in the dictionary and saw that it said "God : A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions." Based on this definition God must be good and what he says must be good.
 
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David Gould

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thomas100 said:
Well for the purposes of this thread let's say that I looked in the dictionary and saw that it said "God : A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions." Based on this definition God must be good and what he says must be good.

I think you are reaching here. Where do you think that definition came from originally? Don't you think that it is likely that it was based on the Bible and what God supposedly says about himself? Or do you think a human made up the definition? If so, who were thay and why should we care about what they say?

Remember: we are looking at the basis of your objective moral system. Is the basis of your objective moral system a definition in the dictionary?
 
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