Secular Music

[MoreInSorrow]

From the other thread. I believe this discussion to be valid, and, well, for lack of a better reason, I'm too lazy to go to another section to post. Those who don't want to read, feel free to move on.

These are just false statements. If you have the Holy Spirit of God in you He will let you know what things you should and shouldn't be doing, it's not a matter of our upbringing it depends upon where we are in our walk with Christ and if we are surrendering to Him or to the desires of our flesh. The only reason we would listen to secular music is that it feeds our flesh, there is no gray area here. I sometimes will listen to secular music and question why after the fact. There is always a wrong message in it somewhere. Maybe not in a particular song, but if you look at the artist's body of work you will see that it sends a wrong message. It is just better to leave it where it belongs, out in the world. And as for determining on our own what is right or wrong to listen to, that just completely flys in the face of and ignores what the word of God tells us when we are told to be separate, to live in this world, but not be a part of it. We are told this for a reason and that is so we may live lives more devoted to Christ and serving Him. It is too easy to fall into the rut of compromise and self-deceit by saying "Oh, this is ok, it's hurting no one, it's just a matter of self-strength and personal maturity." Lies from the enemy. If you compromise in any area it is easier for the devil to then tempt you in another and another. This is why we are told don't give the devil a foothold. Footholds all too easily become strongholds and one day you look around and realize that your relationship with the Lord is lackluster or perhaps non-existent because you have unknowingly let little compromises accumulate over time until your entire walk with the Lord is one big compromise. We should always turn to the word of God for our instruction, when we take it upon ourselves to decide right and wrong we are living in sin and breaking one of the very ten commandments that God gave us. That is, we are putting ourselves before the Holy God and thinking we are capable in our own strength to decide what's good for us. God told us what's bad for a reason and that reason is our good.

Boy, I don't even know where to start with all that.

Let me ask you this first, then we can continue discussing if you want.

Do you watch television shows, ANY televisions shows, that are not 'Christian'? Do you watch ANY movies that are made by the secular world, or released in movie theaters or available at the video store? If your answer is yes, then you just wasted your time typing all that, as you just held yourself accountable to the standard of judgement you just imposed on me, and anyone else who listens to 'secular' music.

I will agree with you, and you partially made my point, that it is the HOLY SPIRIT, and He alone, who should guide my decisions as to whether or not it is ok to listen to that stuff. Here's the thing.....I've sought God on that, and I've gotten rid of some things as a result of it. But I've also kept alot, which I don't believe the Lord finds as being sin in my life. So am I supposed to live up to your standard of spirituality, because it is what the Lord has directed you to do? There are foundational truths of the scriptures that all man should follow. But of the things which are more of a personal choice, I find it funny when people like you pop up and prescribe your level of Christianity and what YOU think is right, just because it doesn't agree with me.

If that's the stance you take, then you, my friend, are going to succeed at being completely non-relevant to the world around you.

 

[eutychus]

I probably shouldn't even try to enter a discussion like this, but after reading the full text quote, I think the main issue is ultimately legalism. No matter what this discussion is about (alcohol, dancing, relationship boundaries, secular music), x cannot be seen as inherent sin that will drench you in its nastiness if it is looked upon. At the end of the day, it's a heart issue; does your heart take joy in what is being said, or do you mourn because it is an abhorrence to God? If that's the case, then there's problems that surpass whether secular music is bad...it is our view of sin. Simply listening to Christian music or classical music cannot change heart issues, but only transformation by the Holy Spirit and following Christian disciplines/growing in one's walk can. Yes, the poster is right that we need to be pure in all our ways...the thing is that purity goes beyond what we listen to or the actions we take part in. It's about motives.

...and the above argument is just talking about secular music that's replete with explicit sin, where it could even possibly lead for a believer to think impure thoughts. In reality, a lot of secular music is a whole lot more edifying and spiritual than something off the shelf in Lifeway.

Yeah, so that's one thing to think about, even though there are several other valid arguments.

I will agree with you, and you partially made my point, that it is the HOLY SPIRIT, and He alone, who should guide my decisions as to whether or not it is ok to listen to that stuff. Here's the thing.....I've sought God on that, and I've gotten rid of some things as a result of it. But I've also kept alot, which I don't believe the Lord finds as being sin in my life. So am I supposed to live up to your standard of spirituality, because it is what the Lord has directed you to do? There are foundational truths of the scriptures that all man should follow.

Valid argument #1, especially the last part. All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable, after all. (1 Cor. 10:23-31) Also see 1 Cor. 7:17-24, if it suits you.

If that's the stance you take, then you, my friend, are going to succeed at being completely non-relevant to the world around you.

Valid argument #2. Paul on Mars Hill in Acts 17. Paul's missionary work, period. Counter-cultural does not equal monastic living.

 

[TheDandyMan]

The only reason we would listen to secular music is that it feeds our flesh, there is no gray area here.

Woah. Over-generalization is an understatement.

I actually listen to stuff like jazz and ambient because the artists, more often than not, pour more emotion into their music and take more joy in the art of making music than the overwhelming portion of CCM artists, most of whose music I find to be uninspiring drivel. (Saying jazz doesn't count as secular because it's largely without vocals is no excuse--it was commonly refered to as the devil's music back in the day)

Pregnancy. Now there is a topic with no gray area.

 

[philN]

I would say something, but I'm a pretty big fan of the people who have already spoken on the matter and I think they did a fine job. To say something else would be anticlimatic.

 

[The Theory]

probably. way to refrain from making an **** of yourself, phil.

I will say this, though...

If God doesn't want us to listen to "secular" music, then He probably doesn't want us to listen to "CCM," either. I have spent enough time watching that industry to realize how corrupt it is and the labels are just as money-worshiping as "secular" labels. Ironically, praise and worship is probably one of the sections most guilty of this considering 90% of praise and worship releases have songs that were already readily available. Which is odd because most praise and worship lyrics are mindless fluff that could be written in half a second. It used to be people would sing songs of substance to our Savior. People seem to think a nice melody and electric guitars make up for the lack of substance because "it makes them all emotional." emotion isn't the same thing as good worship, you know.

ok. sorry i got off on a bit of a tangent, there.

 

[The Theory]

If that's the stance you take, then you, my friend, are going to succeed at being completely non-relevant to the world around you.

Actually, I'm going to take a stance against this somewhat.

Churches and Christians these days feel like they somehow have to be "relevant" to reach people. I haven't found anywhere in the Bible that says that we need to compromise to attract people to the church. Few things frustrate me more than a church that has a nice congregation and good teachings, and then, to apperantly draw unsaved people and make them think "hey, it's hip to be a Christian!" they put on praise and worship rock shows (ailienating anyone over 30 their old congregation) and start teaching biblicalless fluff that sounds good and people have come to think of as truth, like "God wants me to be wealthy, healthy, and happy," which the Bible doesn't really say anything about either wealthy or healthy being a positive and, in fact, has oodles of examples of people who had to *give up their wealth* to be able to follow Christ. The Christianity presented in the Bible isn't a happy walk in the park... and if it is, it's a very self-serving and unhelpful Christianity.


So basically, what I'm saying in relation to this thread is that if someone feels like they shouldn't engage in pop culture, then I don't think it's worth compromising that just to be "relevant" to other people. Other people don't really care if you know Snoop Dogg's latest hit or what style of music Linkin Park is. What will really reach them is if you see them as human and genuinely care about them. That is true relevancy... caring and connecting. Pop culture has nothing to do with that. It is universal.

 

[TheDandyMan]

People seem to think a nice melody and electric guitars make up for the lack of substance because "it makes them all emotional." emotion isn't the same thing as good worship, you know.

No. Rather, it's commonly abbreviated and refered to as "emo."

 

[blackwasp]

That is true relevancy... caring and connecting. Pop culture has nothing to do with that. It is universal.

I wish I could rep everyone who's posted.

 

[MoreInSorrow]

Actually, I'm going to take a stance against this somewhat.

Churches and Christians these days feel like they somehow have to be "relevant" to reach people. I haven't found anywhere in the Bible that says that we need to compromise to attract people to the church. Few things frustrate me more than a church that has a nice congregation and good teachings, and then, to apperantly draw unsaved people and make them think "hey, it's hip to be a Christian!" they put on praise and worship rock shows (ailienating anyone over 30 their old congregation) and start teaching biblicalless fluff that sounds good and people have come to think of as truth, like "God wants me to be wealthy, healthy, and happy," which the Bible doesn't really say anything about either wealthy or healthy being a positive and, in fact, has oodles of examples of people who had to *give up their wealth* to be able to follow Christ. The Christianity presented in the Bible isn't a happy walk in the park... and if it is, it's a very self-serving and unhelpful Christianity.


So basically, what I'm saying in relation to this thread is that if someone feels like they shouldn't engage in pop culture, then I don't think it's worth compromising that just to be "relevant" to other people. Other people don't really care if you know Snoop Dogg's latest hit or what style of music Linkin Park is. What will really reach them is if you see them as human and genuinely care about them. That is true relevancy... caring and connecting. Pop culture has nothing to do with that. It is universal.

Actually Jacob, I agree with all of what you said.

What I am trying to say, and what I failed to get across with that sentence, is that the church needs to get away from all the legalism, and from keeping itself in a bubble, free of any exposure to, or 'rubbing of shoulders' with the outside world. It is a balance that needs to be struck. Sure, we can be relevant without engaging in pop culture, but at the same time, I don't know how many people we'd really effectively reach if we slammed 'listening to secular music is sinful' down their throats. It's counterproductive.

 

[feline]

Is it wrong to eat secular french fries? I know I should buy fries from McChristians, but the ones from McDonalds are so much tastier.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I always wondered why just cause something is called "Christian" it's automatically ok to listen to and everything else is not.

This is being too lazy to think for oneself.

 

[Dreamlink]

I always wondered why just cause something is called "Christian" it's automatically ok to listen to and everything else is not.

This is being too lazy to think for oneself.

I think there's two issues going on here...

1. People saying ALL secular music is wrong.
2. People saying explicit/cussing secular music is wrong.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

For those that asking what's the difference, here's a comparison:

1. Watching Sesame Street.
2. Watching an HBO comic cussing.

Both are secular. One of these things is not like the other... one of these things just doesn't belong!

 

[The Theory]

mmm. ye ol' bleedin' cussing!

 

[foo-oswald]

I always wondered why just cause something is called "Christian" it's automatically ok to listen to and everything else is not.

This is being too lazy to think for oneself.

This hits the nail on the head! People think that music labeled "Christian" is okay because their church leaders say it is. They also think "secular" music is not okay because those same church leaders say it isn't. I realize, of course, that this isn't a universal standard. There are obviously exceptions.

But, personally, I started listening to secular music again after abstaining from it for years because I came to the conclusion that there was no Biblical precedent against it.

I used to be one of those who was "too lazy to think" for myself. Now, I sift through all music, including the bland, boring, cookie-cutter garbage played on CCM stations. If I find someting that appeals to my tastes as a music lover, I listen. Whether it is Beethoven, Killswitch Engage, the David Crowder Band, Led Zeppelin, or Dave Brubeck...

Great post, Mr. Cheese...

 

[MoreInSorrow]

But, personally, I started listening to secular music again after abstaining from it for years because I came to the conclusion that there was no Biblical precedent against it.

I used to be one of those who was "too lazy to think" for myself. Now, I sift through all music, including the bland, boring, cookie-cutter garbage played on CCM stations. If I find someting that appeals to my tastes as a music lover, I listen. Whether it is Beethoven, Killswitch Engage, the David Crowder Band, Led Zeppelin, or Dave Brubeck...

Great post, Mr. Cheese...

This also hits the nail on the head, and is exactly where I come from as well.

I grew up not listening to secular music at all. And I was one of the one's who would always say, "oh no, I don't listen to secular music, that's sinful."

But I came to that same conclusion. There is no Biblical precedent against listening to secular music. Now, that doesn't give credence to listening to anything and everything, as some music is, in it's content, directly against the word of God. For instance, you'll never catch me listening to Cradle of Filth. They are too over the top for me. But at the same time, I don't think listening to the music I listen to (Killswitch Engage, U2, Black Crowes, The New Pornographers, Franz Ferdinand, Pixies, etc) is so contrary to my faith that it is going to lead me astray or send me to hell. The fact is, if you have a faith so shaky that the type of music you listen to leads you astray, then music is the least of your problems.

 

[Shannonkish]

Last night I went to a Bar/Club... I learned that this Bar/Club used to be a "Christian" Amusement Park.... My friends and I laughed at this, because it is quite funny to think about what a Christian Amusement Park would look like, or how it would be different than a "Secular" Amusement park..

I hate labels... I hate putting a "Christian" label on anything.... Music is music... television is television.. I don't define things as Christian or not... I think it is ridiculous and stretching.

 

[foo-oswald]

Last night I went to a Bar/Club... I learned that this Bar/Club used to be a "Christian" Amusement Park.... My friends and I laughed at this, because it is quite funny to think about what a Christian Amusement Park would look like, or how it would be different than a "Secular" Amusement park.

Wow. It shrunk from an entire amusement park to the size of a bar? Is...is that what you're saying? I ask because when you say "amusement park", I think "Six Flags Over Texas". That would make one heckuva huge bar...

I hate labels... I hate putting a "Christian" label on anything.... Music is music... television is television.. I don't define things as Christian or not... I think it is ridiculous and stretching.

Yep. I hate labels, too. Especially the scratchy ones on most t-shirts. I'm really glad most t-shirt manufacturers are phasing out labels in favor of unlabeled shirts. They're much more comfortable!

Sorry. I know that was completely smart-ass. Seriously, though, the word "Christian" means "little Christ" or "like Christ". IMO, we are the only creations in existance that can- or cannot- be "Christian", as we are living beings. A song, being an inanimate combination of lyrics and musical notes, can't be "Christian", or "evil"...

Peace...

 

[Shannonkish]

LOL.. no, actually, the amusement park consisted of a miniture golf course, laser tag, and some arcade games.

 

[Idicious]

Actually, I'm going to take a stance against this somewhat.

Churches and Christians these days feel like they somehow have to be "relevant" to reach people. I haven't found anywhere in the Bible that says that we need to compromise to attract people to the church. Few things frustrate me more than a church that has a nice congregation and good teachings, and then, to apperantly draw unsaved people and make them think "hey, it's hip to be a Christian!" they put on praise and worship rock shows (ailienating anyone over 30 their old congregation) and start teaching biblicalless fluff that sounds good and people have come to think of as truth, like "God wants me to be wealthy, healthy, and happy," which the Bible doesn't really say anything about either wealthy or healthy being a positive and, in fact, has oodles of examples of people who had to *give up their wealth* to be able to follow Christ. The Christianity presented in the Bible isn't a happy walk in the park... and if it is, it's a very self-serving and unhelpful Christianity.


So basically, what I'm saying in relation to this thread is that if someone feels like they shouldn't engage in pop culture, then I don't think it's worth compromising that just to be "relevant" to other people. Other people don't really care if you know Snoop Dogg's latest hit or what style of music Linkin Park is. What will really reach them is if you see them as human and genuinely care about them. That is true relevancy... caring and connecting. Pop culture has nothing to do with that. It is universal.

Here's some news for you, the church back then was NOTHING like it is today, it was RADICAL, NEW, it ALLIANATED the people who held purely to the law. There was nothing normal about it, the church now adays has become normal, often boring, and it clings to the law with all it's might in many cases.

I'm not saying that this means we necesarily bring rock/whatever into the church, it means we should do all things to the glory of God. And as said in Romans chapter 14 that can be different for different people, for what some is a sin to others they can do it to the glory of God. These are personal issues (including in the music world) that there is no right or wrong answer to, it all depends if YOU can bring glory to God through it. This opens up an entire new mindset, we need to respect eachothers differences (as again the bible teaches) We've made the church look like a joke by splitting at every small LEGALISTIC difference.

 

[foo-oswald]

LOL.. no, actually, the amusement park consisted of a miniture golf course, laser tag, and some arcade games.

Oh. That's what I figured. Those aren't part of the new bar, are they?

I don't know why this is so fascinating for me...