hiscosmicgoldfish said in post #37:
Its probably the theory of evolution which is doing its faith destroying work
The theory of evolution doesn't have to affect our faith at all. For evolution can co-exist with creationism, just as an automated process invented by a human (e.g. a computer program which creates random, colorful pictures which can be seen as art) can co-exist with that same human sometimes performing a task himself, directly (e.g. painting some pictures by hand).
Creationism includes what could be called the double-gap theory, meaning that there could have been two different gaps of time in Genesis chapters 1-2, the first gap having occurred between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and the second gap having occurred between Genesis 2:4 and Genesis 2:5.
Genesis 1:1 could have occurred some 4.5 billion years ago, when God first created the planet earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven, in which the birds fly: cf. Genesis 1:20b). Between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, some 4.5 billion years could have occurred, in which God could have allowed his own created process of evolution (random mutation and survival of the fittest) to serve as a mechanism by which new species arose on the earth. During those same 4.5 billion years, God could have also sometimes gone outside of evolution and created new species miraculously, whenever he wanted (cf. punctuated equilibria).
Genesis 1:2 could refer to the condition of the earth only some 12,000 years ago (at the end of the Paleolithic period), after some cataclysm, such as a comet strike, had killed off all life on the planet (both evolved and miraculously created), and had submerged all land areas in water (comets contain huge amounts of water), and had ruined the atmosphere. The impact of the comet could have also knocked the earth out of its orbit around its original star, so that the earth was sent hurtling into the darkness of interstellar space. Genesis 1:3-2:4 could then refer to God, over a period of six literal, 24-hour days (some 12,000 years ago, at the start of the Neolithic period), miraculously restoring to the earth light, a good atmosphere, dry land, and life, including a race of male and female homo sapiens sapiens, after God had miraculously restored land plants (Genesis 1:11-13) and land animals (Genesis 1:24-25) to the earth.
Then, only about 6,000 years ago, God miraculously created on the earth an individual male homo sapiens sapiens named Adam in an uninhabited desert land (Genesis 2:5-7; the original Hebrew word translated there as "earth" can simply refer to a certain "land"; cf. Genesis 2:11). After that, God planted the plants of the Garden of Eden in that desert land (Genesis 2:8-9) and God placed Adam in that garden (Genesis 2:15). After that, God miraculously created the animals of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:19). After that, God miraculously created in the Garden of Eden an individual female homo sapiens sapiens (Genesis 2:22) whom Adam named Eve (Genesis 3:20).
If there were pre-Adamic humans existing on the earth when God created Adam, they could have died in the same ways people die today, and their descendants could have died during Noah's flood.
1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn't require that there were no pre-Adamic humans on the earth. For just as "the first day" in Philippians 1:5 doesn't have to mean "the first day" of Genesis 1:5, and just as "the first works" in Revelation 2:5 doesn't have to mean the first earthly works of Genesis 1:1, so "the first man" in 1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn't have to mean the first homo sapiens sapiens ever to exist on the earth. Instead, Adam could have simply been the first man of the Adamic line of homo sapiens sapiens, which could be the only male line alive on the earth today.
Because Adam was created only about 6,000 years ago, but there are homo sapiens sapiens fossils said to be as old as about 200,000 years, God could have first created homo sapiens sapiens (or it could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) as far back as about 200,000 years.
Also, all the different hominid forms the fossils of which long predate or are as old as the earliest fossils of homo sapiens sapiens, and which preceding or co-existing hominid forms we don't consider to have been fully human like us (such as homo sapiens neanderthalensis), could have all been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) over millions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth.
And this doesn't even get into the possibly trillion other inhabited planets in the universe on which homo sapiens sapiens (or similar or far more advanced life-forms) could have been created by God (or could have evolved by God's created process of evolution) billions of years prior to the first appearance of homo sapiens sapiens on the earth. For the universe could be about 14 billion years old, and there are something like 100 billion different galaxies in the universe, each containing something like 100 billion different stars. So even if only one out of 10 billion stars in the universe has an inhabited planet, this would still mean that there are 1 trillion inhabited planets in the universe. And on most of these planets God could have begun his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) billions of years before beginning his miraculous work (and the work of his created process of evolution) on the earth.
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The Bible doesn't require that the earth is only 6,000 years old (as is sometimes claimed). All the Bible requires is that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. For various verses in the Bible make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built:
Historians say that Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 BC.
And 1 Kings 6:1 says that Solomon's temple began to be built 480 years after the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
And Exodus 12:40-41 says that Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus.
And Genesis 47:9 shows that Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 years old.
And Genesis 25:26 says that Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 years old.
And Genesis 21:5 says that Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:26 shows that Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 years old.
And Genesis 11:24 says that Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 years old.
And Genesis 11:22 says that Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:20 says that Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 years old.
And Genesis 11:18 says that Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:16 says that Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 years old.
And Genesis 11:14 says that Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 years old.
And Genesis 11:12 says that Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 says that Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 years old.
And Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6 taken together show that Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 years old.
And Genesis 5:28-29 says that Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 years old.
And Genesis 5:25 says that Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 years old.
And Genesis 5:21 says that Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 years old.
And Genesis 5:18 says that Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 years old.
And Genesis 5:15 says that Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 years old.
And Genesis 5:12 says that Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 years old.
And Genesis 5:9 says that Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 years old.
And Genesis 5:6 says that Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 years old.
And Genesis 5:3 says that Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 years old.
Adding up all the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC.
If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the seventh millennium since Adam's creation began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't require that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has begun yet.)
It's curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC, the possible date of Adam's creation.
The numbers of years in the list of scriptures above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1948 years after the creation of Adam, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.
If Solomon's temple began to be built about 966 BC, then 1 Kings 6:1 means that the Exodus may have occurred about 1446 BC.
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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC (subsequent to Adam's creation about 4114 BC), by "civilization" was meant "the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained" (Webster's, print-version); "The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and of writing. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence" (
Wikipedia -- 4th millennium BC).
Regarding "civilization" being defined by
Oxford Dictionaries as the "most advanced" stage of human social development and organization, our current human civilization (4th millennium BC to the present) is the most advanced stage of human social development and organization, compared to all
known prehistoric (pre-4th millennium BC) stages.
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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC, by "current" was meant that civilization which began in the 4th millennium BC and continues on today, as opposed to any pre-Adamic human civilizations which may have existed from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years ago.
If there were pre-Adamic civilizations, they could have reached as high a level of technology as our modern technology today, for the Bible says "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things" (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). And even our future technology could have already been invented during past eons, for "that which is to be hath already been" (Ecclesiastes 3:15).
But all past-eons technology on the earth could have been completely obliterated by God, leaving no trace of it, just as all our own technology today (and in our future) will eventually be completely obliterated by God, when "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10b). Here by "earth" could be meant just the surface of the earth, for the planet itself could continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b), so that the future "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) could mean a new surface for the earth.
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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4,000 BC, by "human" was meant human civilization in general, as opposed to the civilization of any particular people (e.g. Mayan civilization).
Also, by "human" civilization was meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the first human civilization, there could have been non-human mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (cf. Revelation 9:17-19), who could have rebelled against God and then been banished from the earth (and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases somewhere away from the planet, such as on the far side of the moon and/or on Mars, for the future army of 200 million weird horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere).
Preceding the first mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dragon/dinosaur creatures (cf. Revelation 12:9).
And preceding the first reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (cf. Revelation 16:13).
And preceding the first amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (cf. Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep within the earth's crust (cf. Revelation 9:2-3,11).
