Seat of Moses ?

Eloy Craft · Apr 16, 2018

You said:I must keep speaking to you with symbols or parables.

Quoting scripture is not you speaking in symbols and parables. Show me one of yours that you used to 'teach' me. Disannull, or anull, my point is, if they thought Jesus could anull or disanull authority from Moses, that they admitted in their own minds His authority was above theirs and Moses' that they were consciously manipulating for that end. . That's a wild speculation. Please, quit making ad hominem statements and address my arguments with substance.

Mercymessianicjudiasm · Apr 16, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
You said:I must keep speaking to you with symbols or parables.

Quoting scripture is not you speaking in symbols and parables. Show me one of yours that you used to 'teach' me. Disannull, or anull, my point is, if they thought Jesus could anull or disanull authority from Moses, that they admitted in their own minds His authority was above theirs and Moses' that they were consciously manipulating for that end. . That's a wild speculation. Please, quit making ad hominem statements and address my arguments with substance.

I gave you scriptures which is the substance you fail to understand. I already told you that the Pharisees sought to disannul the law from Moses, "honor thy father and mother". They never attempted to annul the commandments of G-d, which will always have a legal basis. They sought to make void the holy commandment which means they attempted to make void the seat of Moses through their traditions. You make void something that is already valid. You annul something that have no legal basis (catholics) like an unlawful marriage. It is Catholic doctrine to teach annulment.

Meowzltov · Apr 16, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
What does that (wool/linen) have anything to do with what I said?

It's one of the laws.

Meowzltov · Apr 16, 2018

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
Again Torah did not say to separate wool from linen. Please do not quote Torah if you deliberately misquote it. Deuteronomy 22:11

Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together.

Let's not mince words here. Not mingling is the same thing as keeping separate. We mean what scripture says. Don't wear clothing that has both wool and linen together, such as a wool suit with linen button holes.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 16, 2018

Open Heart said:
It's one of the laws.

yeah...and? Again what does it have to do with what I said?

Meowzltov · Apr 16, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
yeah...and? Again what does it have to do with what I said?

The subthread was started by something Mercy said. When you jumped in, I assumed you were referring to the same topic, not going into something unrelated. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Mercymessianicjudiasm · Apr 16, 2018

Open Heart said:
Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together.

Let's not mince words here. Not mingling is the same thing as keeping separate. We mean what scripture says. Don't wear clothing that has both wool and linen together, such as a wool suit with linen button holes.

Again, Moses never asked you to separate anything! He asked you not to wear clothes in which linen and wool are woven together. This is an entirely different law, than what you are saying. The word "seperate" is not in that text. Please humble yourself and comprehend.

pat34lee · Apr 16, 2018

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
Do the chairs at your table bestow some special power to govern a nation of people? What about the chair of a judge? Even the power a judge is limited to a city, county, state, of course every opinion can be appealed to a higher Court. When did anyone appeal the verdict from Moses? If a jew disagree with the opinion from the Pharisees would they appeal to Ceasar like Pharisee Shaul a Roman citizen? If you disagree with your pastor would you then appeal to the Supreme Court?

You can appeal where there is a process.
Where there isn't, you appeal to Yahweh.

Eloy Craft · Apr 17, 2018

Mercymessianicjudiasm, I think we may have been talking past one another. I'm sorry for my lack of charity towards you.

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
I already told you that the Pharisees sought to disannul the law from Moses,

The way I understand that statement is that the Law of Moses had been judged as never having been a Law in the first place. At least not from God. That is what is determined when a marriage is annulled, that a marriage never happened. There really is no such thing as disannulled. If it never happened in the first place it can't be reinstated.

Are you saying the Pharisees understood that Jesus' teaching was greater than the Law of Moses and were seeking to undermine Jesus so as to preserve their place of authority (seat of Moses) over the Jewish people?

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
. They never attempted to annul the commandments of G-d, which will always have a legal basis.

I understand.

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
They sought to make void the holy commandment which means they attempted to make void the seat of Moses through their traditions.

When you say holy commandment, what do you mean?

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
You make void something that is already valid. You annul something that have no legal basis (catholics) like an unlawful marriage. It is Catholic doctrine to teach annulment.

True it's a legal term but what it means to catholics is there never was a marriage. Not so much unlawful but non-existent. We may be talking past one another. In my mind if something is valid it can't be made void. If it is void there is nothing to validate. You are using it as a legal term. It means both, the way you have been using it and the way I've been reading it.

Eloy Craft · Apr 17, 2018

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
No, Moses said we should not wear clothes that linen and wool are woven together. Much in the same way, the ox and donkey should not be yoked together in labor. Both ox and donkey were used in Torah, so were linen and wool.

Does that mean wool and linen were woven together for other purposes?

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 17, 2018

Here is a video from Rabbi Shapira on his opinion on the subject

Eloy Craft · Apr 17, 2018

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Here is a video from Rabbi Shapira on his opinion on the subject

Thank you Yeshua HaDerekh. An obvious authority on the subject, Rabbi Shapira makes things clear.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 17, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Thank you Yeshua HaDerekh. An obvious authority on the subject, Rabbi Shapira makes things clear.

just posting another point of view

Mercymessianicjudiasm · Apr 17, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Mercymessianicjudiasm, I think we may have been talking past one another. I'm sorry for my lack of charity towards you.

The way I understand that statement is that the Law of Moses had been judged as never having been a Law in the first place. At least not from God. That is what is determined when a marriage is annulled, that a marriage never happened. There really is no such thing as disannulled. If it never happened in the first place it can't be reinstated.

Are you saying the Pharisees understood that Jesus' teaching was greater than the Law of Moses and were seeking to undermine Jesus so as to preserve their place of authority (seat of Moses) over the Jewish people?

I understand.

When you say holy commandment, what do you mean?

True it's a legal term but what it means to catholics is there never was a marriage. Not so much unlawful but non-existent. We may be talking past one another. In my mind if something is valid it can't be made void. If it is void there is nothing to validate. You are using it as a legal term. It means both, the way you have been using it and the way I've been reading it.

It is like making "void" a" live " check. The check is legal and valid until it is made void. Even a voided check serve legal purpose to make future payment via "direct deposit ". Again, they sought to disannul (not annul) or make void the word from G-d through their hypocrisy. I said the Pharisees attempted to "disannul " the seat of Moses like a voided check that can never be used to make payment for a good or service. In other words the "reward" or pay for keeping Torah is made void or lost.

Mercymessianicjudiasm · Apr 17, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Mercymessianicjudiasm, I think we may have been talking past one another. I'm sorry for my lack of charity towards you.

The way I understand that statement is that the Law of Moses had been judged as never having been a Law in the first place. At least not from God. That is what is determined when a marriage is annulled, that a marriage never happened. There really is no such thing as disannulled. If it never happened in the first place it can't be reinstated.

Are you saying the Pharisees understood that Jesus' teaching was greater than the Law of Moses and were seeking to undermine Jesus so as to preserve their place of authority (seat of Moses) over the Jewish people?

I understand.

When you say holy commandment, what do you mean?

True it's a legal term but what it means to catholics is there never was a marriage. Not so much unlawful but non-existent. We may be talking past one another. In my mind if something is valid it can't be made void. If it is void there is nothing to validate. You are using it as a legal term. It means both, the way you have been using it and the way I've been reading it.

It is like making "void" a" live " check. The check is legal and valid until it is made void. Even a voided check has legal purposes. Again, they sought to disannul or make void the word from G-d through their hypocrisy. I said the Pharisees attempted to "disannul " the seat of Moses like a voided check that can never be used to make payment for a good or service. In other words the "reward" or pay for keeping Torah is made void or lost.

Mercymessianicjudiasm · Apr 17, 2018

pat34lee said:
You can appeal where there is a process.
Where there isn't, you appeal to Yahweh.

The law of Moses is YHWH verdict.

Yusuphhai · Apr 17, 2018

Every believer of Monotheism thinks he(she) inherits Moses’s Law, Jewish, Christian and Muslim. If he(she) denies Moses’s Law, he(she) loses Legal rationality of his(her) faith from the origin of history . I can understand the Pharisees’ passion to inherit Moses’s law. Some Pharisees were hypocrite, some were not. The famous scholar Gamaliel was a Pharisee, his student Saul was a Pharisee. Even after Saul became Yeshua’s apostle he still said “ I am a Pharisee.” (Act23:6) . He said himself 【Phi3:6】as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. And he also said【1Tim1:15】The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-- of whom I am the foremost. Jewish scholars think there are always deeper meanings in Torah that nobody has ever explored. Saul thought himself righteous and blameless under the law from a lower perspective to the Torah. When by the great light which pierce his eyes he found Yeshua was just the predicted prophet like Moses. 【Deu.8:15】The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you shall heed such a prophet. Yeshua sits in the seat of Moses, and He is the fulfillment of Torah. From this higher perspective, Saul thought he was a foremost sinner.

I am not very sure my opinion is quite right. So welcome to criticize.

Steve Petersen · Apr 17, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
Does that mean wool and linen were woven together for other purposes?

The belt of the high priest was mixed wool and linen. The prohibition on ordinary Israelites wearing wool and linen mixed may have been in order to separate sacred garments and profane ones. Israel was prohibited from making incense that was the same as that used in the Temple, another example.

The Temple Institute: The Priestly Garments: The Belt

ralliann · Apr 17, 2018

Mercymessianicjudiasm said:
No, Moses said we should not wear clothes that linen and wool are woven together. Much in the same way, the ox and donkey should not be yoked together in labor. Both ox and donkey were used in Torah, so were linen and wool.

Actually wool and linen Garments were for the priests only to wear. Therefore the mixture is the same as the holy oil. Both were prohibited the common people.

Mercymessianicjudiasm · Apr 17, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
The belt of the high priest was mixed wool and linen. The prohibition on ordinary Israelites wearing wool and linen mixed may have been in order to separate sacred garments and profane ones. Israel was prohibited from making incense that was the same as that used in the Temple, another example.

The Temple Institute: The Priestly Garments: The Belt

Ezekiel 44:17-18

Seat of Moses ?

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