Searching for the Truth

[us38]

You are applying rules of your existence to something that you cannot physically see, and that is not how it works.

This is more special pleading.

Perhaps what "pushed" God, is God.

Perhaps what "pushed" the big bang, is the big bang. I can play this game too.

If something created God and pushed him, what was that being?

My question exactly.

We assume that this plane of existence has seperate beings as in ours, but for all we know what created God was God,

And for all we know, a buck can actually buy something and JFK wasn't assassinated. One's ability to imagine such worlds has no bearing on their existence.

perhaps he can create himself, and each time he does his previous self is absorbed into the new self.

But why can god do these things, but the big bang can't? That's the very definition of special pleading.

Or, if we take into account the possibility that God exists in a moment of no time, where no events thoughts or actions occur, everything that exists there and takes place there has just been, all occurring in one eternal moment which in turn echos through our eternity, and in our one moment.

As soon as you can explain how a timeless being can act, you might be onto something.

There are a million possibilities as to the existence and nature of God, and to prove him, we only need to prove one, yet to disprove him, you need to disprove them all.

Then it is convenient for me that I only need to wait for you to fail to prove god.

It's fair to say a lot of atheists are in the long haul for that one.

Only the ones that believe god doesn't exist. For the rest of us, it's just a simple waiting game.

 

[redmartian89]

There are a million possibilities as to the existence and nature of God, and to prove him, we only need to prove one, yet to disprove him, you need to disprove them all.

Even if did in fact prove that a God existed, you will still face infinite possibilities over what this God really is.

Remember, burden of proof is on the claimant.

Do you have to disprove Allah or Vishnu in order to support your claim?

Negative atheists, that is: people not believing in any gods, have no responsiblity to disprove as we are the disclaiments.

Do you guys sit up at night and think about arguments against fairies, goblins or the Russell's celestial tea cup?

In order to prove something as truth, which is easier: disproving the infinite possiblities of conflicting ideas, or proving the singular claim?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

This is all very well and dandy, but I think you confuse me with someone else

Once we prove a God, then we can argue if that God really is the God some of us think he is. We aren't arguing the bible here, we're arguing theories concerning the birth of our universe. If it makes you feel better, if one day I find God, and he's an evil [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth], then he can kiss my ass.

Perhaps the Bing Bang was God, you're all looking at this from one point of view, and thats not a very good way of getting anywhere but the road you see, and the road you see is not always the right one. Unless its on of those interstate roads that all the other roads are right next to and connect to, then your fine. You can get like 80 mph on those suckers, unless there's a traffic jam of course. I hate those.

A timeless being acts, and that is it. I cannot explain the properties of timelessness accurately, because no human word exists for such purpose, and we have nothing with which to make comparisons. The closest I can come to it is to say is that everything God has ever done, will do, is doing ,has already happened, has never happened, and is happening. Timelessness is both the combination of past, present, and future, and at the same time the absence of all three.

 

[StTherese]

Special pleading. You're saying that everything needs something to make it move, except god. You haven't actually answered the question.

Yes, I have. How can something that has no beginning need something to move it? God is outside of all time and space. He is the Creator of ALL things.

A slightly reworded form of the first argument. The same problem applies.

Circular logic. You define god as necessary, and the universe as contigent, and then marvel at the fact that god necessarily exists.

God doesn't need us to exist or anything that He has created. We are fully dependent upon Him, though, for our existence. How is this logic circular..? God is not a part of creation and is not subjected to the same laws of nature that govern our existence.

More circular logic. This same argument can also be used to prove an evil god.

What causes an atheist to have morals?

If something intelligent requires something even more intelligent, then we get infinite regress. God requires a super god, which requires a mega god, which require an ultra god, and so on and so forth. If you argue that the chain stops at the first god, then you're using special pleading.

God is ALL-knowing. His knowledge is infinite....it is not possible that there could be a being more intelligent than HE who is All-knowing.

 

[Isambard]

Yet you could make the same claims without God simply because you are using God of the gaps arguement and the unmoved mover. Both of which are terrible for determining God's existence.

 

[StTherese]

Yet you could make the same claims without God simply because you are using God of the gaps arguement and the unmoved mover. Both of which are terrible for determining God's existence.

No, I couldn't. God is the "cause" of our entire existence.

Do you have a better arguement to prove His existence? How can something that has no cause, no beginning be explained using logic and reason based on cause and effects? Everything in this material world has a cause, a beginning...it was created and put into motion by an infinite God, who was not created and has no beginning.

 

[Isambard]

No, I couldn't. God is the "cause" of our entire existence.

Do you have a better arguement to prove His existence? How can something that has no cause, no beginning be explained using logic and reason based on cause and effects? Everything in this material world has a cause, a beginning...it was created and put into motion by an infinite God, who was not created and has no beginning.

The same questions can be directed at God, you are using special pleading to argue otherwise.

 

[dlamberth]

I take as much silence and contemplation as I can, as well as opportunities to thank the Lord and ask for guidance in the Good Fight.

However, there aren't too many quiet places where I live, would that I had a desert.

a quite place that is always with you is that space of time between breaths. If you watch yourself, you'll find that it is also that same space of time between breaths that one catches a glimpse of God.

.

 

[dlamberth]

I believe that we must prepare ourselves in this life, for whatever may await us in the cold grave.

I so totally disagree with this. That's because I believe that we must prepare ourselves in THIS life to make God a reality, right here and now, where He is needed the most. What ever happens after death is not ours to decide or even know. Jesus taught us how to not only live but how to also make God a reality in this life in many Biblical passages. Matthew 25:31:46 is a personal favorite of mine.


.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

That is most certainly interesting...

It reminds me of something I do to calm myself when I feel overwhelmed. I start by paying attention to my own breaths, counting them, noting how long and shallow each one is. Then you become aware of your blinking, how often you do it, the intervals between each blink. After awhile, I become acutely aware of smaller things around me, the bumpy textures on the wall, the small ants crawling up a tree, the small plants in the underbrush of the larger ones, and the small movements that indicate insect life, or the rustle of a breeze....

I'm confused, you say you disagree with me, yet what you say in rebuke actually agrees with what I said...

 

[us38]

Yes, I have. How can something that has no beginning need something to move it? God is outside of all time and space. He is the Creator of ALL things.

The problem is, you haven;t stated why god has no beginning. You simply assert that everything needs something to move it, then proposed something that doesn't need something to move it. Unless you can justify the distinction (you haven't), then you're special pleading.

We are fully dependent upon Him, though, for our existence.

You haven't shown the universe to be contingent.

How is this logic circular..?

Let me simplify the argument for you

1)God is defined as necessary.
2) Therefore god exists.

The definition of necessary implies existance. Defining god as necessary when you're trying to prove god's existance is therefore circular.

God is not a part of creation and is not subjected to the same laws of nature that govern our existence.

And I can just as easily assert that god is subjected to the laws that govern our existance. However, I'm not special pleading. If you want to say god is exempt from our laws, you must justify the exemption. Not to mention that god must be bound by our laws, or your proof would be meeaningless.

What causes an atheist to have morals?

Long term self interest.

God is ALL-knowing. His knowledge is infinite....it is not possible that there could be a being more intelligent than HE who is All-knowing.

Still special pleading. If anything having an intelligent goal must be made by something more intelligent, then it follows that god requires something more intelligent than it, which also requires something more intelligent than it, and so on. You can't just define god out of your own requirements. That's special pleading.

Also of note, is that using god to explain an apparently intelligent universe only excaserbates the problem. The universe just existing and attaining intelligent goals must be more likely than a god existing who makes that universe. You added an extra step, and have complicated the process.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Uh, I hate to impose, but if you have any rebuke for the last post I made that is relevant to the discussion you are holding, I'd like to hear it

 

[dlamberth]

I'm confused, you say you disagree with me, yet what you say in rebuke actually agrees with what I said...

It's this statement that I disagree with:

ArchaicTruth
I believe that we must prepare ourselves in this life, for whatever may await us in the cold grave.

.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

uh, accepting Christ could be consider preparation for death

 

[StTherese]

It's this statement that I disagree with:

ArchaicTruth
I believe that we must prepare ourselves in this life, for whatever may await us in the cold grave.

.

What would you propose that we do? Pretend that we will never die and be unprepared when it happens? Not very smart when death brings judgement.

uh, accepting Christ could be considered preparation for death

I agree....not only "considered", but IS preparation for death, for this is what we are called to do, to be one with Him, so that we may be raised with Him on the last day!!!!

 

[ArchaicTruth]

which is why I'm confused as to Dlamberth's complaint

 

[dlamberth]

What would you propose that we do? Pretend that we will never die and be unprepared when it happens? Not very smart when death brings judgement.

What I propose is that TODAY, where God is needed the most, that we make God a reality, right here and now. Help the poor, help those in need. Help to bring peace to the world. What ever happens when we die is totally up to God. No matter how prepared we "think" we are, we have no control over any decisions God makes. But what happens on earth, today, here and now, we can bring the light of God into. That IS something we can do. People are all concerned about being prepared for after death, but they are not as concerned about being prepared for what happens in life. That seems backwards to me. As you can see, for myself, my Love for my Beloved God has absolutely nothing to do with being prepared for death…for me, it’s all about life.

.

 

[dlamberth]

which is why I'm confused as to Dlamberth's complaint

I have accepted Christ not for preparation for death...but to live Life. Jesus spend most of His ministery teaching us how to life life. When I accepted Christ, it isn't death that I received from Him...but life!! So I live for life, not death.

In your OP, you were talking about finding truth in Death. I submit that it is in Life we are able to find Truth.

.

 

[StTherese]

What I propose is that TODAY, where God is needed the most, that we make God a reality, right here and now. Help the poor, help those in need. Help to bring peace to the world. What ever happens when we die is totally up to God. No matter how prepared we "think" we are, we have no control over any decisions God makes. But what happens on earth, today, here and now, we can bring the light of God into. That IS something we can do. People are all concerned about being prepared for after death, but they are not as concerned about being prepared for what happens in life. That seems backwards to me. As you can see, for myself, my Love for my Beloved God has absolutely nothing to do with being prepared for death…for me, it’s all about life.

.

But, it is in death that we truly LIVE! Why can't we do all those things? Why not prepare for death by living this life for God? There ARE things we can do to separate ourselves from God, we should avoid doing things that separate us from Him (that is an action on our part). God wills that we all be saved...yet we know there is a great possibility that we will not ALL be saved, why? Why do you think some will be lost even though God wants to save us all? It is what we do that matters. Our actions in this life will be fulfilled in the next.

 

[StTherese]

I have accepted Christ not for preparation for death...but to live Life. Jesus spend most of His ministery teaching us how to life life. When I accepted Christ, it isn't death that I received from Him...but life!! So I live for life, not death.

In your OP, you were talking about finding truth in Death. I submit that it is in Life we are able to find Truth.

.

Actually we are baptized into His death....His death brings LIFE and therefore our LIFE!