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FreeinChrist

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Cliff2 said:
It is an anti-SDA site so most of it cannot be trusted as being what SDA's believe.

They claim to be Sabbath keepers but not SDA.

But the site I posted was an SDA site and not only says that 1844 was the start of a new phase of atonement, but also #18 promotes Ellen White:
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

I have found this site to be better than the one offered by WalkswithChrist:
http://www.sdaoutreach.org/prophet.cfm


And I found this site to be interesting, as both differ from the 1990 copy of the Great Controversy that I have:
http://storm.prohosting.com/dannywin/great-controversy-early-writings.html
 
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FreeinChrist

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Now in my Copy of The Great Controversy, which is online here:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html
on page 494, in chapter 29, White writes:
"Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge a desire for self-exaltation."

Is there scripture that it was "little by little" (NO!) - or was it found and Satan fell?

" The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer."
?????where in scripture is this?



"God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error."



?????? "Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission."

Satan was offered a chance to repent???



Scripture please.



Another - and I am adding underline:

" Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker."



Scripture? Since when was there a possiblity of repentence and redemption for angels?



It is wrong to just judge the outward works of a group and fail to discern the errors in doctrine that can lead one off in a wrong path.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Cliff2 said:
Can you tell me how many times did God give the king of Babylon chances to repent before he actually did repent.

Why would God give Lucifer a chance?

One, there is NOWHERE in scripture that implies God gave Satan many chances to repent - or that he gradually fell from grace. That is total fabrication on White's part.
Two, how could Lucifer be redeemed if he had repent? Where in scripture does it show that the angels that fell could be redeemed? It doesn't show that anywhere. There was no redemption plan for the angels.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 
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Cliff2

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FreeinChrist said:
One, there is NOWHERE in scripture that implies God gave Satan many chances to repent - or that he gradually fell from grace. That is total fabrication on White's part.
Two, how could Lucifer be redeemed if he had repent? Where in scripture does it show that the angels that fell could be redeemed? It doesn't show that anywhere. There was no redemption plan for the angels.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

You did not answer my question.
 
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Cliff2

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Aloha Joe said:
And you didn't answer the question she asked before yours.

I showed that God willing that none should persih by looking at a Bible example.

So many times God has given sinners many chances to repent, why wouldn't God give the same to Lucifer and the fallen angels?
 
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Cliff2

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WalksWithChrist said:
Ok, I've been reading/hearing about soul sleep lately. What's the deal with soul sleep? Please provide SDA and scriptural references...no opinions please.

The big deal is this, it just blows away so many beliefes that many other church groups have. You can't pray to the saints if they are sleeping in the ground.

Paul is saying here that the righteous dead will rise first. They can't be in heaven if they rise from the ground first.

The Bible say that only God is immortal.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

In the raising of Lazarus Jesus says plainly that sleep is really dead.
John 11



1Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.

2(It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)

3Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

4When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

5Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

6When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.

7Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

8His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

9Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

10But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.

17Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

18Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

19And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.

21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

28And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.

29As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.

30Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.

31The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.

32Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.

34And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.

35Jesus wept.

36Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

37And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?

38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

39Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Cliff2 said:
I showed that God willing that none should persih by looking at a Bible example.

So many times God has given sinners many chances to repent, why wouldn't God give the same to Lucifer and the fallen angels?

I answered your question - and you continue to avoid mine, Cliff.
God gives until our death to repent - but WE, human beings, have been offered a plan of redemption. WE have had our sins born by Christ on the cross.
There is no redemption plan for the angels - that was the point of the verse I posted from Hebrews 2.

So as I wrote, there is NOTHING in scripture that says God gave Satan many chances or that he gradually fell. That is pure fantasy/fiction from Ellen White.
 
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FreeinChrist

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I am reposting this, as Cliff avoided the questions in it. I will make a few of them bold and put numbers in front of the questions:

FreeinChrist said:
Now in my Copy of The Great Controversy, which is online here:

http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html
on page 494, in chapter 29, White writes:
"Little by little, Lucifer came to indulge a desire for self-exaltation."

1)Is there scripture that it was "little by little" (NO!) - or was it found and Satan fell?

" The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer."
2)?????where in scripture is this?



"God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error."



?????? "Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission."

3) Satan was offered a chance to repent???
Scripture please.



Another - and I am adding underline:

" Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker."



4) Scripture? Since when was there a possiblity of repentence and redemption for angels?



It is wrong to just judge the outward works of a group and fail to discern the errors in doctrine that can lead one off in a wrong path.
 
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Airdude

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1)Is there scripture that it was "little by little" (NO!) - or was it found and Satan fell?

" The heavenly councils pleaded with Lucifer."
2)?????where in scripture is this?

Of course there is not a scripture saying these things. No one ever said EGW was quoting scripture here. She was simply providing commentary. She has neither added or taken away from scripture with these statements. :yawn:
 
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Airdude

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So as I wrote, there is NOTHING in scripture that says God gave Satan many chances or that he gradually fell. That is pure fantasy/fiction from Ellen White.

So, do you suppose that Satan just changed his attitude and became evil overnight? I would say that too is fantasy. :D
 
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Airdude

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The big deal is this, it just blows away so many beliefes that many other church groups have. You can't pray to the saints if they are sleeping in the ground.

Paul is saying here that the righteous dead will rise first. They can't be in heaven if they rise from the ground first.

The Bible say that only God is immortal.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

In the raising of Lazarus Jesus says plainly that sleep is really dead.
John 11

"For the living know thath they will die;, But the dead know nothing. And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren. concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." 1Thessalonians 4:13,14

These texts plainly state that the dead are still in their graves. This next one talks about when they will be ressurected.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1Thessalonians 4:16,17

If the "dead in Christ" are to be ressurected how then can they possibly be already in Heaven. This makes no sense to me.:scratch:
 
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deu58

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Hello Airdude


Airdude said:
Of course there is not a scripture saying these things. No one ever said EGW was quoting scripture here. She was simply providing commentary. She has neither added or taken away from scripture with these statements.

Your kidding here right? She is providing commentary but she is not adding to or taking away from scripture,???

I always wondered if Ellen White ever performed a miraculous work, Now thanks to you I know she did,

She wrote 35.000 pages of personal commentary/ divine revelations from God that can not be confirmed from any valid source and did so with out adding to or taking away from scripture, Or at least if you are an SDA you can seem believe this,

To tell you frankly I just do not see how any one can even begin to take you SDA's seriously.

Founded on pure disobedience to scripture from the very beginning by trying to set a positive date for the return of Christ in 1843/44

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Your time setting did not fail just once, It failed twice. Actually if you count the 1851 failure, 3 times, Not to mention that You SDA's insist that Oct 22 1844 was the Jewish day of Atonement, Which plain history verifies it was not,

Then you actually built your foundational doctrine on the belief that Jesus actually went in to the secret chambers, Something else that the bible very plainly tells not to listen to because it is a sign of false teaching.

Mt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Arrogance and pride led you to establish your selves as the only true church and that any one who rejected your prophetess message was doomed to hell


Early Writings, p. 261.
I saw that as the Jews crucified Jesus, so the nominal churches had crucified these messages and therefore they have no knowledge of the way into the most holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left; and Satan, pleased with the deception, assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed Christians to himself .


For 7 years your church taught that no one could be saved,

Present Truth, pp. 21-22, August, 1849.
Some appeared to have been really converted, so as to deceive God’s people, but if their hearts could be seen they would appear as black as ever. My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of soul for sinners as used to be. I looked, but could not see it, for the time for their salvation is past.


Then in the fall of 1851 every prophesy and vision she ever had failed, Again,



From: Don Hawley, Ellen G White book

http://web.archive.org/web/20010617042815/www.sabbath.com/white/



SHUT DOOR

Perhaps the most significant SDA secret was that of the "shut door." I began hearing a faint whisper about this matter when I was still a young Adventist preacher, but it was clear that the subject was strictly taboo. Finally through the years I gleaned that in her first vision Ellen G. White proclaimed that the door of mercy was forever shut to any but the little Adventist band that had believed, contrary to Scripture, that Christ would return on October 22, 1844. All others were doomed to hell. Evangelism was to cease; working for the salvation of souls would be a denial of what God had shown Ellen. There came a quiet admission of this error, but it was also claimed that this belief was held by the pioneers for only a short time. Ellen quickly set them straight on the matter.

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
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Cliff2

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Founded on pure disobedience to scripture from the very beginning by trying to set a positive date for the return of Christ in 1843/44 (deu58)

There were no Seventh-day Adventists, they came from every Church that was there at the time. Certainly did not come from SDA's. There wasn't any.

 
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Cliff2

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To tell you frankly I just do not see how any one can even begin to take you SDA's seriously.

Founded on pure disobedience to scripture from the very beginning by trying to set a positive date for the return of Christ in 1843/44 (deu58)


These people that made the claims werte Methodists, Baptists, Chruch of England, but not Seventh-day Adventists. There weren't any at that time.
 
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