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deu58

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Cliff2

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deu58 said:
Hello Adam 332

Long time no see,


Where did Jesus ever issue the Sabbath commandment??? Where is it ever mentioned that there is a Sabbath commandment after the cross???

I may have missed it but it seems your source omitted an important clue as to what was being talked about,


Col 2:18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Was what was given by angels the oral Torah??? What did Paul mean when he was talking about Angels???

Ga 3:19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; [and it was] ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

Paul was speaking of the Law of Moses itself. Not the oral torah,

yours in Christ
deu 58

More to the point where did it ever say there was no Sabbath commandment after the cross?

None of the texts you quote say that the Sabbath commandment has been done away with.

I may have been away for a few days but when I am back I will keep asking for a text that says the Sabbath has been done away with.

So far no one has produced anything close to a text that says the Sabbath has been done away with or that Sunday is now the new Sabbath.
 
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Jasie

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Jesus also made a prophecy about the last days and as He was describing the
terrible situation of the future He said among other things
"Pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath"
IF the Sabbath was abolished why would He say this?
This more than any other verse shows that Sabbath is so special that we can
by our prayers avoid any kind of anxiety on the Sabbath.
Also Jesus was talking about a time AFTER his death and resurrection so it is still valid even after His death and resurrection. (it was not nailed to the cross)
 
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Cliff2

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Jasie said:
Jesus also made a prophecy about the last days and as He was describing the
terrible situation of the future He said among other things
"Pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath"
IF the Sabbath was abolished why would He say this?
This more than any other verse shows that Sabbath is so special that we can
by our prayers avoid any kind of anxiety on the Sabbath.
Also Jesus was talking about a time AFTER his death and resurrection so it is still valid even after His death and resurrection. (it was not nailed to the cross)

Correct, but that is not all. The gospels were wrote about 30 years after the Cross.

If there had of been a change they would have said.

Beyond me how anyone can say the Sabbath has been abolished when 30 years after the Cross the gospels were wrote.
 
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Egghead

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To the OP.
As I have stated, IF you are saying something about keeping the Sabbath holy as in reverence towards God, I agree.
BUT, I say ALL days are His and should be kept holy, not just the one.

If you are stating that men are not allowed to work on the sabbath, I will have to disagree.
Jesus permitted His disciples to pluck grain on the sabbath which was unlawful.

You cannot reject that this was unlawful as Jesus never disputed that fact AND He also used the example of how David also broke the LAW when he ate the showbread that was UNLAWFUL for him to eat.

the LAW was being broken, NOT the traditions of men, as per Jesus' own example.
 
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Cliff2

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Egghead said:
To the OP.
As I have stated, IF you are saying something about keeping the Sabbath holy as in reverence towards God, I agree.
BUT, I say ALL days are His and should be kept holy, not just the one.

If you are stating that men are not allowed to work on the sabbath, I will have to disagree.
Jesus permitted His disciples to pluck grain on the sabbath which was unlawful.

You cannot reject that this was unlawful as Jesus never disputed that fact AND He also used the example of how David also broke the LAW when he ate the showbread that was UNLAWFUL for him to eat.

the LAW was being broken, NOT the traditions of men, as per Jesus' own example.

It is God that makes a day holy.

It was God that said not to work on the Sabbath.

So if God says not to work on the Sabbath I would take notice of Him before another human being.

As Jesus and His disciples went through the field of grain on the Sabbath and picked some grain to eat and then said about the bpriests working in the temple on the Sabbath and not condemning then I suggest that we alsp follow His example.

God has told us to only keep one day holy not seven. We are to glorify God every day but to keep one day holy, that was and still is the seventh day of the week.
 
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Kepha

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Haven't you guys figured out the day of rest on which we are to observe yet? Your still bickering over matters that should have been settled a long time ago. But i'm sure the Holy Spirit is guiding you all when you read Scriptures and everybody is right in their own way. :clap:
 
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MrJim

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Kepha said:
Haven't you guys figured out the day of rest on which we are to observe yet? Your still bickering over matters that should have been settled a long time ago. But i'm sure the Holy Spirit is guiding you all when you read Scriptures and everybody is right in their own way. :clap:

Yeah...well...we're still ffffiguring it out.:p

Must be nice to be Catholic and have it already settled;) .
 
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Egghead

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Cliff2 said:
It is God that makes a day holy.

It was God that said not to work on the Sabbath.

So if God says not to work on the Sabbath I would take notice of Him before another human being.

As Jesus and His disciples went through the field of grain on the Sabbath and picked some grain to eat and then said about the bpriests working in the temple on the Sabbath and not condemning then I suggest that we alsp follow His example.

God has told us to only keep one day holy not seven. We are to glorify God every day but to keep one day holy, that was and still is the seventh day of the week.
One man esteems one day above all others, another man regards all days the same.

Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. And God is able to make him stand.

To me ALL days are HIS days. ALL days are to be kept holy. I regard ALL days the same.
You dont have to agree with it or like my opinion. It will remain as such.

Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or he falls. And he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One indeed judges one day above another; but another judges every day the same. Let each be fully assured in his own mind.
He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord; and he that does not regard the day, to the Lord he does not regard it
-Rom 14
 
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Egghead

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Cliff2 said:
There is a key word here and that is "man", not God.

Paul does not say that God says that at all, he says "man" does.
Hardly a key word.
The passage shows precisely what I believe, I refuse to give God ONE day and believe the rest are mine to do with as I please.
Too many people think they can stroll into church one day a week, give God his ONE day, then do as they please the rest.

I regard ALL days the same.....ALL days are His and are holy.

There is hardly any refutation anyone can present, either scriptural or non, to show that this way of living is wrong or against God.
 
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Egghead

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Rom 14:5 - One man esteemeth one day above another,.... This is another instance of the difference of sentiments in this church, about the observation of rituals; and is not to be understood of days appointed by the Christian churches for fasting, or abstinence from certain meats, either once a year, as the "Quadragesima", or Lent; or twice a week, as Wednesdays and Fridays; for these are things of much later observation, and which had never been introduced into the church of Rome in the apostle's time; nor were there any disputes about them: much less of days of Heathenish observation, as lucky or unlucky, or festivals in honour of their gods; for the apostle would never say, that a man who regarded such a day, regarded it to the Lord; nor would have advised to a coalition and Christian conversation with such a man, but rather to exclude him from all society and communion: it remains, therefore, that it must be understood of Jewish days, or of such as were appointed to be observed by the Jews under the former dispensation, and which some thought were still to be regarded; wherefore they esteemed some days in the year above others, as the days of unleavened bread, or the passover; particularly the first night, which was a night to be observed throughout their generations; and in their service for it to this day, use these words, äæä îëì äìéìåú îä ðùúðä äìéìä, "how different is this night from every other night" (n)? and the feast of tabernacles, especially the last and great day of the feast, and the day of Pentecost; also one day in a month above others, the first day of the month, or new moon; and one day in a week, the seventh day sabbath:

now there were some, who thought that the laws respecting these days were still in force, particularly the latter, and therefore esteemed it above another: but let it be observed, that the man that did so was one that was weak in faith; the same man that ate herbs, because he would not be guilty of violating those laws, which ordered a distinction of meats to be observed, the same weak man esteemed one day above another, imagining the laws concerning the distinction of days were still obligatory, not rightly understanding the doctrine of Christian liberty, or freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law:

another esteemeth every day alike; that is, one that is strong in faith, and has a greater degree of the knowledge of the Gospel, and of evangelical liberty, knows that the distinction of days, as well as of meats, is taken away, since the word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, Christ the passover is sacrificed for us, the firstfruits of the Spirit have been received, and light by the church from the sun of righteousness, and Christ the true sabbath and rest is come; and therefore, being firmly persuaded there is no more holiness in days than there is in places, has the same regard for one day as another.

The difference between these two lay here, the weak brother regarded a day for the sake of a day, as having by a positive law, he supposed to be in force, a superiority to another, and he regarded worship for the sake of this day; the stronger brother, though he also observed a day for divine worship, which is the Lord's day, since there must be some time for it as well as place, yet he observed the day for the sake of worship, and not worship for the sake of the day
-Gill
 
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deu58

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Hello cliff

Cliff2 said:
There is a key word here and that is "man", not God.

Paul does not say that God says that at all, he says "man" does.

Which clearly shows that today we have a choice, Something that was not permitted man under the OT,

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
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Cliff2

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deu58 said:
Hello cliff



Which clearly shows that today we have a choice, Something that was not permitted man under the OT,

yours in Christ
deu 58

The result of your conclusion is terribly wrong.

Since when did man have a choice of what day he is going to keep holy?

God has always told him what day to keep holy.
 
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Cliff2

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Egghead said:
Hardly a key word.
The passage shows precisely what I believe, I refuse to give God ONE day and believe the rest are mine to do with as I please.
Too many people think they can stroll into church one day a week, give God his ONE day, then do as they please the rest.

I regard ALL days the same.....ALL days are His and are holy.

There is hardly any refutation anyone can present, either scriptural or non, to show that this way of living is wrong or against God.

All days are not holy. God only ever made one day holy.

It is true they are all His and so are the cattle on a thousand hills.

But God only ever made one day holy. That was the 7th day.
 
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Egghead

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Cliff2 said:
All days are not holy. God only ever made one day holy.

It is true they are all His and so are the cattle on a thousand hills.

But God only ever made one day holy. That was the 7th day.

Thats fine.
Paul tells us that one man sees ALL days the same and one man holds ONE day above another and shows that neither is to judge the other.....to his own master he stands or falls.

As I said, who are you to judge the servant of another regarding days or foods?

I hold ALL days the same.
No one has the right to judge me on that.
If you hold one day above another, so be it.
I have many christian friends who do the same and I do not judge them on the matter. They leave me to my faith as well.

Did you read the quote of John Gill above?


Jesus said;
Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
(Mat 22:37-40)
No mention of keeping the sabbath as it had been.

Paul said:

But some of those from the sect of the Pharisees rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
........................
Therefore I judge that we must not cause trouble for those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles; but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
-Act 15
No mention of keeping the sabbath as it had been


Jesus defends His disciples for plucking grains on the sabbath and uses Davids breaking the law concerning the showbread as His example.
He tells them IF THEY HAD KNOWN the meaning of ''I desire MERCY not SACRIFICE'' then they would not have condemned the innocent.

Jesus also asks;
Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who shall have one sheep, and if it should fall into a ditch on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
(Mat 12:11)
Showing that if work is necessary on the sabbath, it IS therefore permitted.
What did the LAW say about work on the sabbath

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work.
But the seventh day is the Sabbath of Jehovah your God.
You shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger within your gates.
(Exo 20:8-10)
Then Jesus turns right around and permits men to work if necessary showing that what..........?

For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.
(Mat 12:8)

Jesus said:

And answering, the synagogue ruler, being angry because Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, said to the crowd, There are six days in which it is right to work. Therefore in them come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite!
Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen his ox or ass from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink?
(Luk 13:14-15)
Any one here that is lifting a finger to do ANYTHING as small as watering your pet, then tells the rest of us to honor the sabbath is nothing short of a hypocrit....just as Jesus has shown.

Jesus shows that doing good, working for good, is perfectly fine on the sabbath.
Is making money to feed my kids and pay my rent good or bad?

Again, if people here are saying to honor God on the sabbath, I agree.
But again, I see ALL days the same....they are ALL His and ALL days should be used to love and honor our God, not just the one.
 
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JOE8585

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Jesus shows that doing good, working for good, is perfectly fine on the sabbath.
Is making money to feed my kids and pay my rent good or bad?

Paying rent is good, feeding your kids is good, but to do work on the Sabbath...bad! The commandment of God says to simply rest, working is against this commandment.

As for your watering your animals rational...you are just as guilty as the Pharisees of taking the Commandment of God out of context. Jesus was calling them hypocrits because they were twisting the orginal commandment and forming a stupid man made law.

Again, if people here are saying to honor God on the sabbath, I agree.
But again, I see ALL days the same....they are ALL His and ALL days should be used to love and honor our God, not just the one.

Again, the commandment from Gods own hand says to rest, all others are man-made laws, concerning the Sabbath.
If you rest ALL days, that isn't being holy that is being LAZY!!!!
 
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Egghead

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JOE8585 said:
Paying rent is good, feeding your kids is good, but to do work on the Sabbath...bad! The commandment of God says to simply rest, working is against this commandment.
Really?
Have you ever fed/watered a pet on the sabbath?

"And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite!
Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen his ox or ass from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink? "
(Luk 13:14-15)

As for your watering your animals rational...you are just as guilty as the Pharisees of taking the Commandment of God out of context. Jesus was calling them hypocrits because they were twisting the orginal commandment and forming a stupid man made law.

What did the COMMANDMENT SAY?

"You shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger within your gates"
(Exo 20:8-10)
The COMMANDMENT said ANY work.
and of course they were taking it to an extreme, as are many here.

When ANY of you state that it is not permitted to work on the sabbath to feed our families YOU make yourselves exactly like those pharisees.



Again, the commandment from Gods own hand says to rest, all others are man-made laws, concerning the Sabbath.
Rest eh?
And He said to them, What man among you will be, who will have one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the sabbaths, will he not lay hold on it and lift it out?
(Mat 12:11)
Sorry, but THAT is work on the sabbath.
Necessary work.
Working when required to pay rent IS necessay.
Working to feed your kids IS necessary.


Ive a feeling some here dont understand Jesus here...
Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are blameless?

But I say to you that One greater than the temple is in this place.

But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.
(Mat 12:5-7)
 
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annasdaddy

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Really?
Have you ever fed/watered a pet on the sabbath?

Dude, you are wanted to condemn be for something that Jesus was condemning the Pharisees over. Of course I have fed my pets on Sabbath, and its OK!! Because as you have pointed out Jesus said so. So what is your point here exactly.


quot-top-left.gif
Quote:
quot-top-right.gif
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And He said to them, What man among you will be, who will have one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the sabbaths, will he not lay hold on it and lift it out?
(Mat 12:11)
quot-bot-left.gif
quot-bot-right.gif


Sorry, but THAT is work on the sabbath.
Necessary work.
Working when required to pay rent IS necessay.
Working to feed your kids IS necessary.

If you lost your sheep in a pit are and you fetch it out are you working for wages or are you doing what is right? You are doing good in the sight of God!!! Just like its ok for Doctors and Nurses, Police, Etc. they are healing and doing good.

I don't know you, I don't have the slightest Idea what your Job is. But i have never met someone that if they missed one day of work, they will not be able to pay rent or buy groceries. I sure hope that you don't have Sundays off because I would hate for your children to eat, or for you to go a month without any Electric.

God rewards obedience, and the Commandment written with Gods own hand says that six days you shall labor but "THE" seventh day is holy and you shall do no work.

Ive a feeling some here dont understand Jesus here...

you know you are so right...Christianity is so much easier than I thought. Man, I hate that I sacrificed my joy of Smoking, and my joy of pornography, when I didn't have to. I hate that I sacrificed my friendships that I made with tht Bar tenders that would give me free drinks.

I agree that the sacrificial system is gone and abolished and that Christ is our ultimate and supreme sacrifice that frees us from our sin. That text in know way frees us from the obligation to be obedient to Gods command!
 
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Egghead

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If you lost your sheep in a pit are and you fetch it out are you working for wages or are you doing what is right? You are doing good in the sight of God!!! Just like its ok for Doctors and Nurses, Police, Etc. they are healing and doing good.

I don't know you, I don't have the slightest Idea what your Job is. But i have never met someone that if they missed one day of work, they will not be able to pay rent or buy groceries. I sure hope that you don't have Sundays off because I would hate for your children to eat, or for you to go a month without any Electric.

God rewards obedience, and the Commandment written with Gods own hand says that six days you shall labor but "THE" seventh day is holy and you shall do no work.
You guys are completely losing me.
You seem to be saying its ok for me to pull my dog out of a ditch (do the right thing) on the sabbath, but then rejecting that working on the sabbath to feed PEOPLE (doing the right thing) is wrong.
Is that what you are saying or not?!?

AGAIN.
Jesus has shown that necessity supercedes the commandment of not working on the sabbath.
Again.
Paul said some men regard one day above another and others regard ALL (including ALL) days the SAME !.....not making ANY distinction for any one day sabbath at all.

I regard ALL days the same. Simple as that.
Jesus has shown that WORK (watering animals, getting them out of a ditch, etc) is permissable on even the sabbath.

you know you are so right...Christianity is so much easier than I thought. Man, I hate that I sacrificed my joy of Smoking, and my joy of pornography, when I didn't have to. I hate that I sacrificed my friendships that I made with tht Bar tenders that would give me free drinks.
Interesting that you are trying to change the CONTEXT of what Jesus was talking about.
HE was talking about WORK ON the SABBATH.....not giving up smokes and porn....sorry.

I agree that the sacrificial system is gone and abolished and that Christ is our ultimate and supreme sacrifice that frees us from our sin.
That text in know way frees us from the obligation to be obedient to Gods command!
Wrong
The COMMAND says NO WORK on the SABBATH !!!
Jesus has shown that necessary work on the sabbath is fine.

Rom 14:5 - One man esteemeth one day above another,.... This is another instance of the difference of sentiments in this church, about the observation of rituals; and is not to be understood of days appointed by the Christian churches for fasting, or abstinence from certain meats, either once a year, as the "Quadragesima", or Lent; or twice a week, as Wednesdays and Fridays; for these are things of much later observation, and which had never been introduced into the church of Rome in the apostle's time; nor were there any disputes about them: much less of days of Heathenish observation, as lucky or unlucky, or festivals in honour of their gods; for the apostle would never say, that a man who regarded such a day, regarded it to the Lord; nor would have advised to a coalition and Christian conversation with such a man, but rather to exclude him from all society and communion: it remains, therefore, that it must be understood of Jewish days, or of such as were appointed to be observed by the Jews under the former dispensation, and which some thought were still to be regarded; wherefore they esteemed some days in the year above others, as the days of unleavened bread, or the passover; particularly the first night, which was a night to be observed throughout their generations; and in their service for it to this day, use these words, äæä îëì äìéìåú îä ðùúðä äìéìä, "how different is this night from every other night" (n)? and the feast of tabernacles, especially the last and great day of the feast, and the day of Pentecost; also one day in a month above others, the first day of the month, or new moon; and one day in a week, the seventh day sabbath:

now there were some, who thought that the laws respecting these days were still in force, particularly the latter, and therefore esteemed it above another: but let it be observed, that the man that did so was one that was weak in faith; the same man that ate herbs, because he would not be guilty of violating those laws, which ordered a distinction of meats to be observed, the same weak man esteemed one day above another, imagining the laws concerning the distinction of days were still obligatory, not rightly understanding the doctrine of Christian liberty, or freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law:

another esteemeth every day alike; that is, one that is strong in faith, and has a greater degree of the knowledge of the Gospel, and of evangelical liberty, knows that the distinction of days, as well as of meats, is taken away, since the word was made flesh, and tabernacled among us, Christ the passover is sacrificed for us, the firstfruits of the Spirit have been received, and light by the church from the sun of righteousness, and Christ the true sabbath and rest is come; and therefore, being firmly persuaded there is no more holiness in days than there is in places, has the same regard for one day as another.

The difference between these two lay here, the weak brother regarded a day for the sake of a day, as having by a positive law, he supposed to be in force, a superiority to another, and he regarded worship for the sake of this day; the stronger brother, though he also observed a day for divine worship, which is the Lord's day, since there must be some time for it as well as place, yet he observed the day for the sake of worship, and not worship for the sake of the day
-Gill
 
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