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EdmundBlackadderTheThird

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Cliff2 said:


How much of the New Testament is directly coppied from the Old Testament without any footnotes to say where it has come from?
When you quote sometbhing to people who know what you are talking about you don't footnote it. The NT and OT are records of what people did and said. It is an entirely different matter. When you publish something in modern society, say that it's not your opinion and that it came directly from God, and then it is found out that not only did you copy a large portion of it but it is suspected that someone else wrote a portion of the rest that makes you a liar. You see it is EGWs claims that God revealed these things directly to her and that it is not opinion that is the whole of the problem. It can be easily proven that the statement about it being from God is false so that makes every other portion of her writing suspect.
 
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Cliff2

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flesh99 said:
When you quote sometbhing to people who know what you are talking about you don't footnote it. The NT and OT are records of what people did and said. It is an entirely different matter. When you publish something in modern society, say that it's not your opinion and that it came directly from God, and then it is found out that not only did you copy a large portion of it but it is suspected that someone else wrote a portion of the rest that makes you a liar. You see it is EGWs claims that God revealed these things directly to her and that it is not opinion that is the whole of the problem. It can be easily proven that the statement about it being from God is false so that makes every other portion of her writing suspect.


More of the same, answer my question directly.
 
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Cliff2

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The Bible and Ellen G. White

1) WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE BEFORE THE FALL, OR AFTER?


BIBLE: Before
Who hath saved us, and called us ... according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus *before the world began.* (2 Timothy 1:9)

EGW: After
The Kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of Man ... (GC 347) (deu58)

Now who is using material without giving us a footnote to say where it has come from. This is not your original work at all. I did not think it was. Why not tell us where you got it from or use your own investigative ideas to find out for yourself.
 
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Cliff2

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40) CAN WE SAY WE ARE SAVED RIGHT NOW BY CHRIST'S GRACE?

BIBLE: Yes
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

EGW: No
Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved ... Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. (COL 155)

This is actually a very very small sample of the many many additions and deletions that Ellen G White has made to the Bible claiming that these things were revealed to her by divine authority,

yours in Christ
deu 58




I thought there were rules here that you had to list your sources of information if you were borrowing from another web site. I maybe wrong but so far I have not seen you list the source.

Do you want me to list the source for you. Seems like a straight copy and paste to me.

Looks like it is right out of an anti-EGW site.

 
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deu58

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Hello cliff

Cliff2 said:


Now who is using material without giving us a footnote to say where it has come from. This is not your original work at all. I did not think it was. Why not tell us where you got it from or use your own investigative ideas to find out for yourself.

I did not say that this particular list is my own work, And it is not, Mine is much more extensive and takes up 5 pages of my website and is very detailed,

I would not be able to post it all here, It would take up to many pages, This list is a general list that is pretty good for this topic that i found becuase you and airdude keep saying that she did not add to or take away from scripture,

Mine is an actual study and is much better than this list and you really do not want me to post it because you would not be able to refute it,

Here is an example of my work dealing with the point you brought up from my section on Bible contrdictions on My website,





Ellen G White says,

The plan of salvation was devised after the fall. This would mean that God did not have foreknowledge of the temptation and fall of man.

<B>
 
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deu58

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Ok Try again and see what happens, Here is the particular point you bring up as I have it on my site, Again as you can see it would not be practical for me to post all 5 very long pages of my own work,

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times">

Ellen G White says,

The plan of salvation was devised after the fall. This would mean that God did not have foreknowledge of the temptation and fall of man.

<B>
 
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EdmundBlackadderTheThird

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Cliff2 said:
More of the same, answer my question directly.
I did answer your question. your question is moot because it is nothing more than a smoke screen. When I quote something and fail to give reference I may be in the wrong but I do not claim my words are directly from God and those that speak against them are rebelling against God. The writers of the NT did not need to cite sources from the OT because describing something is different that claiming the words are your own. When Mark writes about Christ's teachings there is no reason for him to say "(this is a quote from the Torah)". Also footnoting is a modern concept compared to the time of Christ. Also you can buy study Bibles and see the references. All points surrounding your question are moot.
 
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Cliff2

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deu58 said:
Hello cliff



I did not say that this particular list is my own work, And it is not, Mine is much more extensive and takes up 5 pages of my website and is very detailed,

I would not be able to post it all here, It would take up to many pages, This list is a general list that is pretty good for this topic that i found becuase you and airdude keep saying that she did not add to or take away from scripture,

Mine is an actual study and is much better than this list and you really do not want me to post it because you would not be able to refute it,

Here is an example of my work dealing with the point you brought up from my section on Bible contrdictions on My website,





Ellen G White says,

The plan of salvation was devised after the fall. This would mean that God did not have foreknowledge of the temptation and fall of man.

<B>

It is the same as the Bible, you can make it say what you want it to say. Don't take a section here or there and hang youself on it.

Look at the whole lot, see what it all says.

Here is what she really said.

You only quote what you want and disregard what is really there.



[font=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][font=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font][/font][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BIBLE: NO "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you
were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20). [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] BIBLE: NO "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight" (Ephesians 1:4). [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here D&D quote Ellen White saying that the "kingdom of grace" was instituted and the plan was "devised" immediately after the fall. What they failed to quote was Ellen White's statements that the plan had actually existed long before that (see Desire of Ages, p. 22, third paragraph in particular): "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam..." And this statement in the same book, p. 147: "...every act of Christ's life on earth was in fulfillment of the plan that had existed from the days of eternity." There are numerous statements like this in her writings. To get a balanced view of what Ellen White really said about this issue (and in its proper context) we recommend the chapter entitled "The Plan of Redemption" in the book Patriarchs and Prophets. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible has several texts like the ones listed above placing the Plan of Salvation before the creation of the world, but Revelation 13:8 is a bit ambiguous and says that Jesus was slain at the foundation of the world not before (KJV, NKJV, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, LTV). Technically Christ was slain "from the days of eternity" was He not? Did the prophet John make a mistake? No. The plan had to go into effect at the Fall of Adam and Eve, but when did Infinite Wisdom foresee sin and the need for a Savior? From the days of eternity, of course. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Some may point out that some versions of the Bible use "the foundation of the world" to refer to when the Lamb's Book was written as opposed to when the Lamb was slain. However, the majority of the Bible scholars who put together the English Bible translations did not come to this conclusion. Of the major Bible versions King James, New King James, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, and LTV (Green) all point to "slain;" (the NIV says in the margin that it could be written the other way, and the AMP renders it both ways in the text itself). NASB has it pointing to the "Book," with the margin stating that it could be referring to "slain." The RSV and Darby do word it so that the "foundation" is referring to the writing in the Lamb's Book. Yet even without this text, Ellen White's statements don't contradict anything the Bible says in this regard. She agreed that the plan had been in existence from "the days of eternity.") [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The problem here has nothing to do with Ellen White, but with our finite minds trying to grasp how a God who knows the future ever "plans" anything and when? After all, no matter what He does, He already knew He was going to do it, so when did He really decide to do anything? God's ways are "past finding out." (Job 9:10) This infinite subject is too much for the human mind. We're talking about Omniscience here. There are many examples in the Bible where God does something, and it seems it is not what He had originally "planned" to do. For just a small sample: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]— Casting Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9). (When was that plan "devised"?)
— God Rejecting King Saul (1 Sam. 16:1)
— The plan in heaven as to how to get King Ahab to perish at Ramothgilead (1 Kings 22:19-22).
— God deciding not to do what He originally planned to do to the evil man or nation that repents (Jer. 26:3; 18:8).
— God deciding to answer the prayers of those who persevere in their petitions (Luke 18:7,8; 11:5-9).
— God deciding to destroy the earth with a flood (Gen. 6:6).
— God allowing King Hezekiah to live an additional 15 years after telling him he was about to die (2 Kings 20:1-6). [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now, when were these plans "devised"? God knew "from the days of eternity" exactly what He was going to do, and when He would do it. It is hard for us to understand how God can "make" any plans while already knowing the future perfectly. This is not a contradiction at all, but rather a subject that simply cannot be explained by (or to) mere human beings."[/font]
 
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deu58

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Hello Cliff

Ok I found some strange code in the html and removed it so lets see if this works,





Ellen G White says,

The plan of salvation was devised after the fall. This would mean that God did not have foreknowledge of the temptation and fall of man.



Great Controversy, Ch 19, Light through Darkness p. 347. {1888 edition} The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race. It then existed in the purpose and by the promise of God; and through faith, men could become its subjects.

I saw a debate posted at Truth or Fables over Ellen Whites contradictions where SDA Ellen White defenders say she made it plain in the Desire of Ages that the plan of salvation existed before the fall,

Desire of Ages Chapter 1 pg 22,

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne.





This seems all well and good until we look at what she wrote in Early Writings concerning the fall and the plan of salvation,
[font=Times New Roman, Times]Early Writings, pp. 149-151.


Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost . . . I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded His Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with the Father. . . . Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. . . . He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself . . . Jesus bade the heavenly host be reconciled to the plan that His Father had accepted. . . [/font]

In Early Writings Ellen White claims that not only was the Plan of Salvation not in place at the fall but that God the father had not even thought of it. It was Jesus who thought of it and had to approach his father three times to convince him to accept his plan.

He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. {EW 149.2}


Pg 151

that the plan of salvation was devised, and His Father had accepted the plan. {EW 150.1}

But again in Patriarchs and Prophets she flip flops back to the Biblical teaching that the Plan of Salvation was in place before the fall.

Patriarchs and Prophets, Ch 4 The Plan of Redemption Pg 63

Before the Father He pleaded in the sinner's behalf, while the host of heaven awaited the result with an intensity of interest that words cannot express. Long continued was that mysterious communing--"the counsel of peace" (Zechariah 6:13) for the fallen sons of men. The plan of salvation had been laid before the creation of the earth; for Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8); yet it was a struggle, even with the King of the universe, to yield up His Son to die for the guilty race.

This is a common problem in the writings of Ellen White. In her zeal to promote her own views she would lose track of Biblical truths and add or detract from them thus producing a Hodge podge of confusion where she would say one thing about a subject and later say something completely opposite concerning the very same topic.

The Bible says,

<B>Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:







1 Peter 1:18-20 "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake"

Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight"

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

When reading Gods truly inspired word there is no flip flopping.

1co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Another example of Ellen Whites flip flopping can be found in her switch from the Arian to the Trinitarian position,

Copied from, THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY AMONG ADVENTISTS
Gerhard Pfandl
Biblical Research Institute
Silver Spring, MD

Pg6

[font=Times New Roman, Times]1. All our pioneers, including Ellen White were anti-Trinitarians.35

Answer: It is true that at the beginning our pioneers expressed their understanding of the Godhead in anti-Trinitarian terms. Anti-Trinitarianism at that time was based on three leading ideas: (1) There once was a time when Christ did not exist.
(2) Christ received divinity from the Father and was therefore inferior to him. (3) The Holy Spirit is not the third person of the Godhead but only the power or influence of God and Christ. All of these ideas were originally held by our pioneers.
However, it is also a historical fact that the understanding of our pioneers changed over time. For example, (1) In 1846 James White referred to “the old unscriptural Trinitarian creed, viz., that Jesus is the eternal God.”36 But in 1876 he wrote that “S. D. Adventists hold the divinity of Christ so nearly with the Trinitarians, that we apprehend no trial here.”37 And a year later he declared his belief
in the equality of the Son with the Father and condemned any view as erroneous that “makes Christ inferior to the Father.”38 (2) Originally Uriah Smith and others taught that Christ was the first created being. Later he adopted the position that Christ was begotten not created (see p. 3 above).............................
[/font]
Pg 7
Furthermore, her bold statements on the Trinity took many by surprise. M. L. Andreasen recounts, “I remember how astonished we were when Desire of Ages was first published, for it contained some things that we believed were unbelievable; among other things the doctrine of the trinity which was not generally accepted by Adventists then.”

During 1909 Andreasen spent three months at Elmshaven where he was able to look at her handwritten manuscripts.

He wrote,
In her own handwriting I saw the statements which I was sure she had not written — could not have written. Especially was I struck with the now familiar quotation in Desire of Ages, page 530: “In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived.” This statement at that time was revolutionary and compelled a complete revision of my former view — and that of the denomination — on the deity of Christ.

They were surprised because up till this time Ellen G White had taught that Jesus is the created Angel of the Lord named Michael.

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times">Patriarchs and Prophets, pg761 paragraph 5 Ch. title: appendix
Again Christ is called the Word of God. John1:1-3 . He is so called because God gave his revelations to man in all ages through Christ. it was his spirit that inspired the prophets 1 Pet.1:10,11 he was revealed to them as the angel of Jehovah, the captain of the Lords host, Michael the Archangel

1897 comment on Rev 8:3,
"the ministry of the angel at the altar of incense is representative of Christ's intercession"...
{ms 15, 1897}

1900"
The mighty angelwho instructed John{Rev1:1}was no less than the person of Christ"
{ms 59,1900}

1903"
The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty"{ms 150,SDA Bible commentary
Vol.5 p.1129}

1904 "
To Christ had been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father {Testimonies Vol. 8, pg.268}

1905 comment on Rev 10:6"In swearing by the creator
the angel who is Christ, swore by himself." { ibid. ,pg 798}

The Bible says,

Isa.9:6KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Isa 43:11KJV
I, Even I, am the Lord;
and besides me there is no saviour


Heb1:4KJV
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person ,and upholding all things by the word of his power ,when he had by himself :purged our sins ,sat down on the on the right hand of the Majesty on high
Being made so much better than angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they .

Heb1:5KJV
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son,this day have I begotten thee?And again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Isa42:8KJV
I am the LORD: that is my name:
and my glory will I not give to another,neither my praise to graven images.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I am.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.


[font=Times New Roman, Times]
Mt 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.

[/font]

Many Adventists will say that they do their own study and form their own opinions but as can be seen from the surprise of the Adventists when Ellen White began promoting the Trinity Doctrine after holding to the Arian position for 50 years it can be seen that this is not as true as they would like us to believe. When her view changed so did theirs.


" >This statement at that time was revolutionary and compelled a complete revision of my former view — and that of the denomination — on the deity of Christ. "

"
 
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deu58

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Hello Cliff

There finally got it to post, But as you can see I deal with things in essay form rather than in bulleted lists as do most anti EGW sites,

So I can not actully post all of my own work on Ellen Whites Bible contradictions,

Here is the point though, Ellen White had a staff of editors to review her work and try to catch these mistakes, These are the errors that the editors missed and they actually made it into the writings,

So what kind of errors were there BEFORE the editors reviewed her work???

An example is the tower of Babel error, Did Ellen White really believe that the tower of babel was built before the flood??? Of course not,

But she was so anxious to promote her own brand of truth that she would forget actual bible truth and she commited more than a few serious blunders in doing so and then say that she had seen these things from God,

Not only was EGW guilty of saying "the lord showed me" when he obviously did not she is also guilty of very poor scholarship,

The Great Controversy is a classic example of this, It is full of Historical errors, Your church has known this from the beginning and William White even made a statement concerning those errors,

Selected Messages Book 3, page 437, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: Appendix A

"MOTHER HAS NEVER CLAIMED TO BE AUTHORITY ON HISTORY.
A STATEMENT MADE BY W. C. WHITE BEFORE THE
GENERAL CONFERENCE COUNCIL, OCTOBER 30, 1911.

Not exactly a brilliant defense for what is supposed to be her premier work for the general public but that is the defense your church made,
If you try to use the Great Controversy to back your arguments on the Catholic church, Luther, The reformation and a host of other things you are going to look like an idiot if you come across someone who really knows history and a liar to those who first believed you and found out different later,

So what good is this kind of "TRUTH" to anyone?? And yet your church year after year pumps out the same errors claiming it is really the truth when they actually know it is not the truth, Why do they do that?? Money.

Just after we were first married my wife wanted a copy of the three volume zipper bound set of the Spirit of Prophecy. It cost me 200 US dollars in 1995 for these 3 books, I read somewhere that the EGW books alone are a 1 billion US dollar a year business for the SDA church,

That is why your church wishes People like Walter Rea and George Veltman would just shut up and play the game. They are attacking the Golden Goose,

All organized religions are willing to sacrifice the truth for profit Cliff, It is not just your church, It is all of them, That is why I laugh at you when you say these are the people that we should consult if we really want to know the truth about Ellen White,

That is akin to telling an SDA if you really want to know the truth about the Papacy call the Vatican, Lets go ask the wolf if the sheep are still ok,

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
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Cliff2

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Just after we were first married my wife wanted a copy of the three volume zipper bound set of the Spirit of Prophecy. It cost me 200 US dollars in 1995 for these 3 books, I read somewhere that the EGW books alone are a 1 billion US dollar a year business for the SDA church, (deu58)


Can you show me where you got that from or is it another one of your false rumours that you like to spread on here. I have never heard of that figure or a figure anywhere near that. Just cannot understand where you get all this information from that borders on the stupidity.

Take a look at what you claim about the Adventist Hospital system and how it was supposed to be claiming all this money through fraud.

Now the guy making the claims has beens ent to goal for two years for making them as they have been shown to be false.

Have not seen any apologies for making such claims from deu58 or flesh99.


"Man gets two years in prison for harassing phone calls

[font=helvetica, arial][size=-2]By ERIC HARTLEY and ELIZABETH LEIS Staff Writers[/size]



William M. Lovern has aggravated a lot of people over the years, but yesterday he finally ran into someone who could do something about it. A county judge sentenced the 52-year-old Arnold man to two years in prison for making dozens of harassing telephone calls to finance companies.

Mr. Lovern, who runs a firm called Trial Management Associates that he says litigates "extreme class action" and investigates fraud, has been a thorn in the side of many public officials and businesses for years.

In 1998, when he was living in Richmond, Va., he sued the school system because his son didn't make a high school basketball team and Mr. Lovern was banned from school grounds for pestering the coach and principal.

A federal judge tossed out his lawsuit, saying Mr. Lovern was trying to "intimidate everybody to force them to do his bidding."

In 2002, a prosecutor said, he was convicted in federal court in Virginia of harassing an IRS agent. Also that year, an Anne Arundel County judge issued a restraining order barring him from calling an Illinois company that said he had falsely accused it of insurance fraud.

Late last year, he started calling Western Union's parent company, complaining that he'd been required to give his Social Security number when picking up money from a wire transfer, which he said was a violation of federal law.

He made dozens of calls and wrote letters, telling the company he was going to sue if it didn't stop collecting Social Security numbers. Finally a company official filed criminal telephone harassment charges.

But in court yesterday, even as he was facing prison time, Mr. Lovern insisted he's done nothing wrong and is rightfully investigating fraud cases as an attorney.

"I am working with the FBI on this case," Mr. Lovern said.

"I am the established attorney general in 50 states and D.C.," he added, explaining that a private citizen has the same rights as the attorney general to sue in fraud cases.

In fact, a state bar official said this morning, Mr. Lovern is not a licensed attorney in Maryland.

Circuit Court Judge Pamela L. North told Mr. Lovern she believed he has a mental disorder. She ordered him to get treatment and sentenced him to the maximum three years in prison, suspending a year of the term.

"Either you're an incredible liar or you really believe what you're saying," the judge said, adding that it seemed Mr. Lovern has a "superhero" complex.

Assistant State's Attorney Stacey B. Green called Mr. Lovern a "bully," saying he has continued to make harassing telephone calls since a jury convicted him June 16.

Mr. Lovern has called 20 people at a Rockville firm since the end of June and accused them of "Medicaid fraud," Ms. Green said. She said she's gotten 15 phone calls from other victims since Mr. Lovern's conviction.

Having a judge arrested

Ms. Green said Mr. Lovern has a pattern: He calls, says he has a complaint about a legal issue, then becomes belligerent and threatening when people don't give in to his demands immediately.

In 2003, he threatened to sue an Australian bank for $15 billion for supposedly illegal practices, according to charging documents.

Judge North said Mr. Lovern is "clearly a dangerous person" since the people he harassed believed he was going to go after them physically.

While his criminal case was pending, he called Circuit Court Administrative Judge Joseph P. Manck, telling his law clerk, "I just wanted to talk to him before I call the U.S. Marshals Office and have him arrested," Ms. Green said.

He also promised in court yesterday to file a disciplinary complaint against Ms. Green, who he accused of improperly prosecuting him.

Mr. Lovern said the telephone calls were made in the course of his business investigating fraud under the Federal False Claims Act. He said he's a private lawyer who runs two law firms and has been investigating Medicaid, Medicare and child support fraud for two years.

"I want to put on the record that 90 percent of what (Ms. Green) said is not just disingenuous, it's a flat-out lie," he said in his slight Southern twang.

'I'm already packed'

In 2002, according to a lawsuit against him, Mr. Lovern accused a finance company of misconduct and warned a vice president, "Get a good attorney."

That's advice Mr. Lovern didn't take himself. He represented himself at his trial and sentencing - something Judge North called a mistake.

"All of this stuff that you're doing is against the law and you have to come to grips with that," she told him. "I'm really sorry you didn't get a lawyer. I sort of begged you to get a lawyer."

Mr. Lovern told Judge North putting him prison would be a "back-door" attempt to silence him and would violate the Constitution. He said he's being targeted for exposing misconduct.

"There is not one person who has complained who is not in trouble," he said. "The conviction was for annoying someone on the phone. To incarcerate someone for that would be outrageous."

Mr. Lovern begged the judge to let him go home, saying he was ready to move on again - he's lived in Texas, Virginia and Maryland.

"I can go to another state. I'm already packed," he said.

That argument didn't sway Judge North, who told him, "You'd probably go to South Dakota or something and do the same thing."

[/font]
 
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Cliff2

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Cliff2 said:
It is the same as the Bible, you can make it say what you want it to say. Don't take a section here or there and hang youself on it.

Look at the whole lot, see what it all says.

Here is what she really said.

You only quote what you want and disregard what is really there.



[font=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][font=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font][/font][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"1. WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE AFTER THE FALL? [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]EGW: YES "The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race" (Great Controversy, p. 347).[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BIBLE: NO "For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you
were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake" (1 Peter 1:18-20). [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BIBLE: NO "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight" (Ephesians 1:4). [/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here D&D quote Ellen White saying that the "kingdom of grace" was instituted and the plan was "devised" immediately after the fall. What they failed to quote was Ellen White's statements that the plan had actually existed long before that (see Desire of Ages, p. 22, third paragraph in particular): "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam..." And this statement in the same book, p. 147: "...every act of Christ's life on earth was in fulfillment of the plan that had existed from the days of eternity." There are numerous statements like this in her writings. To get a balanced view of what Ellen White really said about this issue (and in its proper context) we recommend the chapter entitled "The Plan of Redemption" in the book Patriarchs and Prophets. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Bible has several texts like the ones listed above placing the Plan of Salvation before the creation of the world, but Revelation 13:8 is a bit ambiguous and says that Jesus was slain at the foundation of the world not before (KJV, NKJV, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, LTV). Technically Christ was slain "from the days of eternity" was He not? Did the prophet John make a mistake? No. The plan had to go into effect at the Fall of Adam and Eve, but when did Infinite Wisdom foresee sin and the need for a Savior? From the days of eternity, of course. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Some may point out that some versions of the Bible use "the foundation of the world" to refer to when the Lamb's Book was written as opposed to when the Lamb was slain. However, the majority of the Bible scholars who put together the English Bible translations did not come to this conclusion. Of the major Bible versions King James, New King James, NIV, AMP, Weymouth, Young's, and LTV (Green) all point to "slain;" (the NIV says in the margin that it could be written the other way, and the AMP renders it both ways in the text itself). NASB has it pointing to the "Book," with the margin stating that it could be referring to "slain." The RSV and Darby do word it so that the "foundation" is referring to the writing in the Lamb's Book. Yet even without this text, Ellen White's statements don't contradict anything the Bible says in this regard. She agreed that the plan had been in existence from "the days of eternity.") [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The problem here has nothing to do with Ellen White, but with our finite minds trying to grasp how a God who knows the future ever "plans" anything and when? After all, no matter what He does, He already knew He was going to do it, so when did He really decide to do anything? God's ways are "past finding out." (Job 9:10) This infinite subject is too much for the human mind. We're talking about Omniscience here. There are many examples in the Bible where God does something, and it seems it is not what He had originally "planned" to do. For just a small sample: [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]— Casting Satan out of heaven (Rev. 12:7-9). (When was that plan "devised"?)
— God Rejecting King Saul (1 Sam. 16:1)
— The plan in heaven as to how to get King Ahab to perish at Ramothgilead (1 Kings 22:19-22).
— God deciding not to do what He originally planned to do to the evil man or nation that repents (Jer. 26:3; 18:8).
— God deciding to answer the prayers of those who persevere in their petitions (Luke 18:7,8; 11:5-9).
— God deciding to destroy the earth with a flood (Gen. 6:6).
— God allowing King Hezekiah to live an additional 15 years after telling him he was about to die (2 Kings 20:1-6). [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now, when were these plans "devised"? God knew "from the days of eternity" exactly what He was going to do, and when He would do it. It is hard for us to understand how God can "make" any plans while already knowing the future perfectly. This is not a contradiction at all, but rather a subject that simply cannot be explained by (or to) mere human beings."[/font]

This gives the truth about what EGW said, not what an anti-EGW site want to promote.
 
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deu58

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Hello Cliff

Cliff2 said:
This gives the truth about what EGW said, not what an anti-EGW site want to promote.

The problem is cliff she wrote two different opposing views, Which one did she actually receive from God??? Which one did she actually believe??

Ellen White was a double minded woman who believed one thing one day and something else the next, She was very easily influenced by those around her,

Another mark against her so called prophetic ability, The prophets of the Bible were consistent wereas she changed with the weather.

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
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Cliff2

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deu58 said:
Hello Cliff



The problem is cliff she wrote two different opposing views, Which one did she actually receive from God??? Which one did she actually believe??

Ellen White was a double minded woman who believed one thing one day and something else the next, She was very easily influenced by those around her,

Another mark against her so called prophetic ability, The prophets of the Bible were consistent wereas she changed with the weather.

yours in Christ
deu 58

You need to look at the whole lot of what is said.

This is what the Bible says to do.

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You like to take apart of what is said in a paragraph or even a sentance and then say this is what EGW says. When you need to look at what is said as a whole not just an isolated part there of.

As in Isaiah says to do.

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.

"here a little, and there a little"
 
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Cliff2

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Cliff2 said:
Can you show me where you got that from or is it another one of your false rumours that you like to spread on here. I have never heard of that figure or a figure anywhere near that. Just cannot understand where you get all this information from that borders on the stupidity.

Take a look at what you claim about the Adventist Hospital system and how it was supposed to be claiming all this money through fraud.

Now the guy making the claims has beens ent to goal for two years for making them as they have been shown to be false.

Have not seen any apologies for making such claims from deu58 or flesh99.






"Man gets two years in prison for harassing phone calls

[font=helvetica, arial][size=-2]By ERIC HARTLEY and ELIZABETH LEIS Staff Writers[/size]



William M. Lovern has aggravated a lot of people over the years, but yesterday he finally ran into someone who could do something about it. A county judge sentenced the 52-year-old Arnold man to two years in prison for making dozens of harassing telephone calls to finance companies.

Mr. Lovern, who runs a firm called Trial Management Associates that he says litigates "extreme class action" and investigates fraud, has been a thorn in the side of many public officials and businesses for years.

In 1998, when he was living in Richmond, Va., he sued the school system because his son didn't make a high school basketball team and Mr. Lovern was banned from school grounds for pestering the coach and principal.

A federal judge tossed out his lawsuit, saying Mr. Lovern was trying to "intimidate everybody to force them to do his bidding."

In 2002, a prosecutor said, he was convicted in federal court in Virginia of harassing an IRS agent. Also that year, an Anne Arundel County judge issued a restraining order barring him from calling an Illinois company that said he had falsely accused it of insurance fraud.

Late last year, he started calling Western Union's parent company, complaining that he'd been required to give his Social Security number when picking up money from a wire transfer, which he said was a violation of federal law.

He made dozens of calls and wrote letters, telling the company he was going to sue if it didn't stop collecting Social Security numbers. Finally a company official filed criminal telephone harassment charges.

But in court yesterday, even as he was facing prison time, Mr. Lovern insisted he's done nothing wrong and is rightfully investigating fraud cases as an attorney.

"I am working with the FBI on this case," Mr. Lovern said.

"I am the established attorney general in 50 states and D.C.," he added, explaining that a private citizen has the same rights as the attorney general to sue in fraud cases.

In fact, a state bar official said this morning, Mr. Lovern is not a licensed attorney in Maryland.

Circuit Court Judge Pamela L. North told Mr. Lovern she believed he has a mental disorder. She ordered him to get treatment and sentenced him to the maximum three years in prison, suspending a year of the term.

"Either you're an incredible liar or you really believe what you're saying," the judge said, adding that it seemed Mr. Lovern has a "superhero" complex.

Assistant State's Attorney Stacey B. Green called Mr. Lovern a "bully," saying he has continued to make harassing telephone calls since a jury convicted him June 16.

Mr. Lovern has called 20 people at a Rockville firm since the end of June and accused them of "Medicaid fraud," Ms. Green said. She said she's gotten 15 phone calls from other victims since Mr. Lovern's conviction.

Having a judge arrested

Ms. Green said Mr. Lovern has a pattern: He calls, says he has a complaint about a legal issue, then becomes belligerent and threatening when people don't give in to his demands immediately.

In 2003, he threatened to sue an Australian bank for $15 billion for supposedly illegal practices, according to charging documents.

Judge North said Mr. Lovern is "clearly a dangerous person" since the people he harassed believed he was going to go after them physically.

While his criminal case was pending, he called Circuit Court Administrative Judge Joseph P. Manck, telling his law clerk, "I just wanted to talk to him before I call the U.S. Marshals Office and have him arrested," Ms. Green said.

He also promised in court yesterday to file a disciplinary complaint against Ms. Green, who he accused of improperly prosecuting him.

Mr. Lovern said the telephone calls were made in the course of his business investigating fraud under the Federal False Claims Act. He said he's a private lawyer who runs two law firms and has been investigating Medicaid, Medicare and child support fraud for two years.

"I want to put on the record that 90 percent of what (Ms. Green) said is not just disingenuous, it's a flat-out lie," he said in his slight Southern twang.

'I'm already packed'

In 2002, according to a lawsuit against him, Mr. Lovern accused a finance company of misconduct and warned a vice president, "Get a good attorney."

That's advice Mr. Lovern didn't take himself. He represented himself at his trial and sentencing - something Judge North called a mistake.

"All of this stuff that you're doing is against the law and you have to come to grips with that," she told him. "I'm really sorry you didn't get a lawyer. I sort of begged you to get a lawyer."

Mr. Lovern told Judge North putting him prison would be a "back-door" attempt to silence him and would violate the Constitution. He said he's being targeted for exposing misconduct.

"There is not one person who has complained who is not in trouble," he said. "The conviction was for annoying someone on the phone. To incarcerate someone for that would be outrageous."

Mr. Lovern begged the judge to let him go home, saying he was ready to move on again - he's lived in Texas, Virginia and Maryland.

"I can go to another state. I'm already packed," he said.

That argument didn't sway Judge North, who told him, "You'd probably go to South Dakota or something and do the same thing."

[/font]

deu58/flesh99

What is your take on this now?
 
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deu58

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Hi Cliff

Cliff2 said:
deu58/flesh99

What is your take on this now?

Harrasing the government and the established powers that be is never a healthy thing to do, you will generally wind up a Martyr of sometype, Either actully killed or a living Martyr,

Jails are full of people all over the world who's only real crime was to seek true justice against the powers that be, Nelson Mandela is good example of that,

rest assured the South African Govt, tried to portray him as an evil insidious man

Just because he is in prison does not mean that he and his company can not pursue their case,

Also he will appeal, The case is far from over.

his guilt does not prove your church's innocence. Your church has already been convicted once to the tune of 20million dollars for the very same charges that he is bringing against your church, They lost that one and had to pay,

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
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deu58

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Hello Cliff

Just so you do not accuse me of spreading rumors about the SDA 20 million conviction



sealdoj.gif





ADVENTIST HEALTH SYSTEM, HOSPITALS, AMBULANCE COMPANIES

TO PAY U.S. MORE THAN $20 MILLION TO SETTLE FRAUD CLAIMS



WASHINGTON, D.C. - Winter Park, Florida-based Adventist Health System Sunbelt Healthcare Corporation, three affiliated hospitals and a management company that administered ambulance operations at the three hospitals have agreed to pay the U.S. $20.3 million to settle allegations that they overcharged Medicare, the Justice Department and the Department of Health and Human Services announced today. The government alleged that the charged were for ambulance transports for patients which were not medically necessary.

The government further alleged that Regional Emergency Services and the hospitals created false physician certifications regarding the medical necessity of ambulance transports operated by the hospitals and submitted or caused to be submitted claims to Medicare. The suit alleges that the false claims were submitted during 1993 through 2000 in the case of Florida Hospital Waterman and Metroplex Adventist Hospital, and 1993 through 1997 in the case of Huguley Memorial Medical Center.

"This settlement again demonstrates the United States’ commitment to protecting federal funds from fraud and abuse," said Peter D. Keisler, Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Civil Division.

The settlement resolves claims brought under the qui tam or whistleblower provisions of the False Claims Act in United States ex rel. Mulligan v. Florida Hospital Waterman, Inc., and Florida Regional Emergency Medical Services (M.D. Fla.), and will also cover certain allegations by a relator in United States ex rel. Wightman v. Laidlaw, Inc., et al. (W.D. Tex.). Under the False Claims Act, private individuals who bring suits against companies can receive between 15 and 25 percent of the recovery in a case in which the government intervenes.

Kevin Mulligan, who was employed by Florida Hospital Waterman as an emergency medical technician, will receive approximately $1.9 million dollars as his part of the settlement. Adam Wightman will be awarded approximately half a million dollars.

The case was conducted by the Civil Division of the Department of Justice.


It is like I said earlier cliff, It is not about truth, It is about money, These are the people you are trusting to tell you the truth about what they produce and sell,

yours in Christ
deu 58
 
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Cliff2

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deu58 said:
Hi Cliff



Harrasing the government and the established powers that be is never a healthy thing to do, you will generally wind up a Martyr of sometype, Either actully killed or a living Martyr,

Jails are full of people all over the world who's only real crime was to seek true justice against the powers that be, Nelson Mandela is good example of that,

rest assured the South African Govt, tried to portray him as an evil insidious man

Just because he is in prison does not mean that he and his company can not pursue their case,

Also he will appeal, The case is far from over.

his guilt does not prove your church's innocence. Your church has already been convicted once to the tune of 20million dollars for the very same charges that he is bringing against your church, They lost that one and had to pay,

yours in Christ
deu 58

The trillions this guy was talking about was right over the top.

The 20 million is again your figures.
 
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