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Explain how you came to that conclusion. You are literally saying you have to believe in the Bible alone in order to accept an additional standard. Umm???
ok, but how do you apply that to Ellen White. espically after the disaster we have seen.
that is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.T
they can be inspiring, that is not in debate, but does that make them on the same level as the scripture? No. Does that make her a prophet?NO that is the problem. if they SDA church could just say, she is not a prophet, or a source of authority, but a good author that would be fine but that is not the case. You have to bow and yeild to ANYTHING she says.
she is not just any author that is not her claim or the claim of the SDA church.
I don't claim to be the only authority on the subject matter, but I am an authority on the subject. I know SDA theology and History and I know the issues with Ellen White and how she is viewed and used by the SDA church. I was active for over 40 years in the church. I still attend.
that is true and a good attitude but you need to also know the assumptions the people you are reading and consulting with, not every thing is good, not everyone has good motives.
SDA's can be good Christians and are often unfairly targeted and misrepresented by people who thing doctrine only is the basis of being a christian. not being born again.
that is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.
that is a great attitude to have. I only wish SDA's could have that. When you know everything because you have a modern prophet you can't take the journey you try to convince everyone else of your truth. Look at the Mormons and JWs' The SDA's are in the same catagory, i know i used to be a missionary for them.
but SDA's don't read other people stuff.
i can tell you with over 50+ years of experiance with The SDA church. They do not read other work in mass, maybe hear a little, There a little, but not as a regular diet. Why would they everyone else is in apostasy. The more conservative/traditional they are the less like they are to read out side of Adventism, The have the bible and Ellen White, that is enough. I am speaking from a North American, European/ Australian perspectivethat is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.
I don't find this to be the case ... maybe some do ... in fact many of those on youtube and other media quote all kinds of different writings of people (christian or not) and yes do include Ellen White's writings.
Kind of painting with a really broad brush don't you think? There are over 22 million members in the SDA church, you have no idea what they do or do not read.
I know you are trying to be tactful, but you are on very dangerous ground. SDA use EGW as the final Arbiter of truth. That is the problem. if you don't agree with here you can loose your Job, Membership and voting rights and you can be shunned. the Traditionalist do not allo any disagreement at all on this matter..No offense ... but none are the arbiter of truth, including you, me or any other person or denomination , God's word is the only TRUTH ... and Ms. White constantly reiterated that in her writings ... and anyone who reads her writings knows that, including yourself.
Does that really apply here? "If you love me keep my commandments." "test everything hold fast to what is true, because Many false prophets have go into the world'. this is not about being "nice" this is about "truth" SDA's claim to have a modern day prophet. that is either true or false. God either spooke through her or did not. she either has authority and must be listened to and obeyed or not. That is the claim. some of the demands she makes on people leads to crazy thing.Do you think God is going to judge people on their earthly church affiliations and knowledge of biblical doctrine? .... or ... by whats in their heart?
this is not about the heart, it is about obey God. either you will or you won't rebellion is rebellion no matter how "nice" you are. it is either sin or it is not.Sure ... we all debate/discuss scripture and that's a good thing .... it makes people search the scriptures ... God most certainly wants all of us searching and discussing His Word from which we form a closer relationship with Him .... but He is also very clear we are not to judge others ... that's totally up to Jesus ... only He knows the heart and has the power to change it.
it is an authority thing. she is not just some other tv preacher raido show host or christian author. That is the deception. He speaks for God in his place. she must be listened to at all cost or you are in rebelling againt God and could envoke the wrath of God.Is it a knowledge thing or a heart thing? What do you think?
this is not relevent. my heart is just fine. I am doing what God told me to do.What Does the Bible Say About God Knows Your Heart?
So, you decided you no longer you want to be a member of the SDA church and take issues with some of their and Ms. Whites writings/teachings ... fine .... how's your heart? (rhetorical question) no ... I don't want an answer ... it's none of my business ... it's between you and the Lord ... just like it is with each and evey of us.
we are also to correct and rebuke sin, error and blasphmey, EGW is all 3.We are to point others to Jesus .... getting the gospel out about the Lord by using His Written Word and discussing it .... hopefully by doing so something discussed will get people digging deep into His Word for themselves and they will form their personal relationship with Him and encourage others to do the same whereby hearts will be changed. Amen.
don't see the relevence.I mean think about it .... all the people who have ever lived (or living today....and in the future,) some of which never had exposure to His written word .... how will God rightly judge them?
those are nice ideas but not related to the subject matter. it appears you are trying to shift the discussion from Ellen Whites failed prediction to me. This is not about me it is about Ellen. so let us get back to examining her statements and the facts and stay out of the personal emotional speculation. Thank -you.HEART ... only God knows it .... only God can change it. Thank you Jesus! Amen and AMEN.
I encourage everyone to study His Word for themselves and find peace in their hearts... it is truly a never ending transforming experience and to be cherished. The love of God is the most powerful and wonderful thing in the universe.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ESV (this is God) God is Love.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
What remains? LOVE
When we get to heaven .... who will be there? Only God knows. Everybody that's supposed to be there ... will be there.
Can't wait to live in a place and be with the Lord and others where there is nothing but love for one another forever and ever .... how about you?
I do not see a response from you for #1 or #5. Are you admitting those ones are false prophecies, or was there another reason you didn't respond to them (e.g. lack of time/interest to go through all seven)?FAILED Accusation #3 - The Civil War is a sign the Jesus is about to Return Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 260
EVERY calamity by land or by sea was taught as a sign that Christ's coming is near and we continue to give that same warning today... and we all know it.
REv 22:
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
FAILED accusation #4 -- Jesus would return in a few months (1850) Early Writings, p. 58 -
(No such Jesus will return in a few months) statement in that reference - and all of us who read it - know it.
" Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected; therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the most holy place was nearly finished and that time can last but a very little longer. What leisure time we have should be spent in searching the Bible, which is to judge us in the last day." EW 58.1
REv 22:
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
FAILED accusation #2 - "england will attack the United States'
"Said the angel: “Hear, O heavens, the cry of the oppressed, and reward the oppressors double according to their deeds.” This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. England is studying whether it is best to take advantage of the present weak condition of our nation, and venture to make war upon her. She is weighing the matter, and trying to sound other nations. She fears, if she should commence war abroad, that she would be weak at home, and that other nations would take advantage of her weakness. Other nations are making quiet yet active preparations for war, and are hoping that England will make war with our nation, for then they would improve the opportunity to be revenged on her for the advantage she has taken of them in the past and the injustice done them. A portion of the queen's subjects are waiting a favorable opportunity to break their yoke; but if England thinks it will pay, she will not hesitate a moment to improve her opportunities to exercise her power and humble our nation. ..."1T 259.1
step one - provide an actual quote in context - rather than a string of false accusations. This should be very easy to do if you actually have a case, a point , a fact.
For example.. your last to false accusations are totally bogus - they work best if you provide no quote and no context. So I suppose I have to applaud you for giving those accusations their best chance of being regarded as fact.
FAILED accusation #7 -- you have no quote at all from Ellen White saying she was shown "Jupiter" or "Saturn" in a vision much less that she was shown people "living on Jupiter or Saturn" .. simple fact and it is irrefutable. She did claim to have been shown some planet in the Universe that had moons and that had people on it - but never said what planet it was (likely because humans had no name for whatever galaxy/solar system/ planet it was)
FAILED accusation #6 --WE both know that her statement about the "pious slave" that shakes of their chains at the appearing of Jesus never claims that the slave was in America - only that that a slave would exist on earth at the time of the 7th plague and the appearing of Christ. We also know that this statement was published in the 1880's in Early Writings and in 1947 in "Story of Redemption" -- yet no SDA was saying in 1880's or in 1940's that Christ came in 1880 or in 1947 because they don't need that kind of teaching to say that someone on planet Earth is a slave during the time of the 7 plagues of Rev 16 and Christ's appearing during the 7th plague.
No comment on Ellen G White, but in regards to Ezekiel...You're treading a dangerous road here; EGW is a failed prophetess in much the same way that Ezekiel is a failed prophet because he prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would raise to the ground Tyre, that men would dry their fishing nets on the rocks where her foundations once stood. But Nebuchadnezzar did no such thing, nor did Alexander the great, 300 years later, nor has anyone to this day since Tyre's foundations are still visible today and the 'island' which once was her stronghold is still occupied today, despite Ezekiel's prophecy that it would never be occupied again.
The URL gives a long winded set of excuses for the prophecy not taking place; wouldn't such failure come under the condemnation of false prophecy in Deuteronomy 18?No comment on Ellen G White, but in regards to Ezekiel...
Ezekiel Tyre prophecy defended
Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretationswww.tektonics.org
should be that simple, but for some reason it is not. this what I want people to see.The URL gives a long winded set of excuses for the prophecy not taking place; wouldn't such failure come under the condemnation of false prophecy in Deuteronomy 18?
when a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.Deuteronomy 18:22
=====================
That statement above does show someone some place on Earth is a slave in the still-future second coming but does not say it is slavery in America still being in place at that future time. -- Obviously
This was also published again as slate as 1947 - and was never positioned as America returning to slavery. Just that it would exist some place on Earth at that future event.
No doubt a lot of warnings to America against its role in slavery - and slavery continued in Muslims countries many decades after it ended in America - but the statement about the slave in chains at the second coming is about "a slave on earth" no mention is made of which nation that slave was in. Your contrived accusation is not "how terrible Ellen White said a slave would be on Earth at the second coming" rather it is that the statements published in the 1880's in Early Writings and in 1947 in Story of Redemption "predicted" that the second coming would be before 1860's even though they said nothing about a slave in chains in America at the second coming.Bob God's wrath burns against THIS NATION, and this land of light.
Early Writings
All heaven beholds with indignation human beings, the workmanship of God, reduced by their fellow men to the lowest depths of degradation and placed on a level with the brute creation. Professed followers of that dear Saviour whose compassion was ever moved at the sight of human woe, heartily engage in this enormous and grievous sin, and deal in slaves and souls of men. Human agony is carried from place to place and bought and sold. Angels have recorded it all; it is written in the book.
Thanks - the info at that site was very informative.No comment on Ellen G White, but in regards to Ezekiel...
Ezekiel Tyre prophecy defended
Answering Bible contradictions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretationswww.tektonics.org
She directly says it's this nation. The nation she was in at the time of writing. Which was the United States.No doubt a lot of warnings to America against its role in slavery - and slavery continued in Muslims countries many decades after it ended in America - but the statement about the slave in chains at the second coming is about "a slave on earth" no mention is made of which nation that slave was in. Your contrived accusation is not "how terrible Ellen White said a slave would be on Earth at the second coming" rather it is that the statements published in the 1880's in Early Writings and in 1947 in Story of Redemption "predicted" that the second coming would be before 1860's even though they said nothing about a slave in chains in America at the second coming.
We are allowed to condemn slavery in America in the 1800's without also having to insist that the slave mentioned as in chains at the second coming - can only be in America given that slavery on planet earth went on for many decades in Muslim countries after the 1860's, still exists in some nations today and that we have no way to see the future to know - there is not a slave on Earth during the seven plagues of Rev 16.
It is just not that difficult to understand the point.
Thank you for pointing to two that you see some merit in at this point. I am happy to respond to the details in those cases.I do not see a response from you for #1 or #5. Are you admitting those ones are false prophecies, or was there another reason you didn't respond to them (e.g. lack of time/interest to go through all seven)?
Well .... yes .... we are to rebuke false teachings .... nobody is a replacement for God (blasphemy) .... I find nothing in her writings where she claims this ... some believe she was a prophetess, some don't ... it's not out of the realm of possibility ... I take no stance one way or the other regarding this. The stance I take is I find her writings inspiring. But certainly will not cite blasphemy or heretic teachings in regard to what she wrote.i can tell you with over 50+ years of experiance with The SDA church. They do not read other work in mass, maybe hear a little, There a little, but not as a regular diet. Why would they everyone else is in apostasy. The more conservative/traditional they are the less like they are to read out side of Adventism, The have the bible and Ellen White, that is enough. I am speaking from a North American, European/ Australian perspective
I know you are trying to be tactful, but you are on very dangerous ground. SDA use EGW as the final Arbiter of truth. That is the problem. if you don't agree with here you can loose your Job, Membership and voting rights and you can be shunned. the Traditionalist do not allo any disagreement at all on this matter..
Does that really apply here? "If you love me keep my commandments." "test everything hold fast to what is true, because Many false prophets have go into the world'. this is not about being "nice" this is about "truth" SDA's claim to have a modern day prophet. that is either true or false. God either spooke through her or did not. she either has authority and must be listened to and obeyed or not. That is the claim. some of the demands she makes on people leads to crazy thing.
this is not about the heart, it is about obey God. either you will or you won't rebellion is rebellion no matter how "nice" you are. it is either sin or it is not.
it is an authority thing. she is not just some other tv preacher raido show host or christian author. That is the deception. He speaks for God in his place. she must be listened to at all cost or you are in rebelling againt God and could envoke the wrath of God.
this is not relevent. my heart is just fine. I am doing what God told me to do.
we are also to correct and rebuke sin, error and blasphmey, EGW is all 3.
don't see the relevence.
those are nice ideas but not related to the subject matter. it appears you are trying to shift the discussion from Ellen Whites failed prediction to me. This is not about me it is about Ellen. so let us get back to examining her statements and the facts and stay out of the personal emotional speculation. Thank -you.
I do not see a response from you for #1 or #5. Are you admitting those ones are false prophecies, or was there another reason you didn't respond to them (e.g. lack of time/interest to go through all seven)?
Not for those that read their Bibles.That is a very weak argument
It's not everybody else's fault that the people who support Ellen White support her they're not victims it's their fault. They are seeking credibility and authority and influence. It goes directly against What God says, place the blame where it belongs, place the responsibility where it belongs and stop blaming everybody else for not knowing how to deal with it.Well .... yes .... we are to rebuke false teachings .... nobody is a replacement for God (blasphemy) .... I find nothing in her writings where she claims this ... some believe she was a prophetess, some don't ... it's not out of the realm of possibility ... I take no stance one way or the other regarding this. The stance I take is I find her writings inspiring. But certainly will not cite blasphemy or heretic teachings in regard to what she wrote.
Accusing someone of blasphemy and/or being a heretic is a serious thing ... don't forget Jesus himself was accused of these things.
Blasphemy, in a religious sense, refers to great disrespect shown to God or to something holy, or to something said or done that shows this kind of disrespect; heresy refers a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion.
So, your are putting forth your opinions .... that's fine ... however .... people should research these things for themselves.
There is a fine line between expressing one's opinion and being judgmental.
My point about the heart is .... we don't know whats in someones heart ... only God does .... and He judges according to it.
His basic principles are written in everyone's heart whether they choose to admit that fact .... or not. We all fall short. We all have "heart problems", including myself .... I wasn't "picking on you" or trying to deflect from the OP, nor was it an emotional response .... I was stating a principle that is taught in His Word ... God searches and judges the heart ... not us.
Again ... when someone goes outside His Written Word .... they should carefully compare that with it ... this was Ms. Whites continuous belief and stated this many many times ... and is solid biblical advice.
Religious "systems" set up the way they run things, are not perfect because they are run by imperfect people. People complain/bicker about their churches all the time. One of the reasons I choose to study on my own and not be "boxed" into any particular "church system" or what doctrines they may put forth.
Those in the Lord are His church and they transcend all earthly church systems. Who am I to say who those people are?
Ok, so you disagree with some things within the SDA church .... and making statements about them ... to what result/outcome? What are your expectations?
(feel free to edit your statement to make it legible)It's not everybody else's fault that the people who support Ellen White support her they're not victims it's their fault.
Thank you for your posts here. As an SDA I have no inclination to object to your statements rather I find them to be insightful.Well .... yes .... we are to rebuke false teachings .... nobody is a replacement for God (blasphemy) .... I find nothing in her writings where she claims this ... some believe she was a prophetess, some don't ... it's not out of the realm of possibility ... I take no stance one way or the other regarding this.
As do I.The stance I take is I find her writings inspiring.
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