SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

This post is specifically for non Adventist who are posting on this site or lurking. Another member of The forum who has been posting. Has stated that he is debunked the objections raised in my original post. My question to those who are not Adventists who are posting or lurking. Is this.

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the original objections to Ellen White?

2. Do you believe more or less in Ellen White based upon the response of the Ellen white supporters?

The Liturgist · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
I once believed in her so I know that people can change their mind. So that is possible. This is also about exposing people who are not believers prophecies to the likes of these people will stoop to deceive and defend this person no matter what. If the SDA Church could get rid of her that they can make some adjustments and they could probably grow exponentially.

To be clear, you are an Adventist, even an SDA, who is reform-minded and pushing for reform, or rather a return to the status quo ante of the 1990s, or even the early 2010s, when EGW was largely de-emphasized in many Adventist churches and Adventists pursued close ecumenical ties with other Christian denominations, for example, leasing space in the 1980s to an Anglican church in my town and in the early 2010s additionally to a Syriac Orthodox church (after to my chagrin my efforts to get them a place in a Methodist church failed, because with regards to the available slot, an evangelical church from a mid-sized denomination called the Vineyard or somesuch beat me to the punch, and Saturday was taken up by the very pious Korean Methodists, who I love, by the way). This was shortly before my friend from the Episcopal Church retired causing me to leave Episcopalianism for Orthodoxy due to the issues of homosexuality, abortion and other doctrinal issues, which deeply sadden and frustrate me. Indeed contrary to what some might think most of what I have posted on DST has consisted of lamentations about the decline of the mainline churches, especially the Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist churches and the heirs to the Congregationalist denominations like the United Church of Christ, which I left because if there is one thing I would agree with you and @BobRyan on doctrinally, it is that we should not put a comma where God intended a period (people familiar with a nasty UCC ad campaign from the mid 2000s will recall what I am talking about).

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

The Liturgist said:
To be clear, you are an Adventist, even an SDA, who is reform-minded and pushing for reform, or rather a return to the status quo ante of the 1990s, or even the early 2010s, when EGW was largely de-emphasized in many Adventist churches and Adventists pursued close ecumenical ties with other Christian denominations, for example, leasing space in the 1980s to an Anglican church in my town and in the early 2010s additionally to a Syriac Orthodox church (after to my chagrin my efforts to get them a place in a Methodist church failed, because with regards to the available slot, an evangelical church from a mid-sized denomination called the Vineyard or somesuch beat me to the punch, and Saturday was taken up by the very pious Korean Methodists, who I love, by the way). This was shortly before my friend from the Episcopal Church retired causing me to leave Episcopalianism for Orthodoxy due to the issues of homosexuality, abortion and other doctrinal issues, which deeply sadden and frustrate me. Indeed contrary to what some might think most of what I have posted on DST has consisted of lamentations about the decline of the mainline churches, especially the Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist churches and the heirs to the Congregationalist denominations like the United Church of Christ, which I left because if there is one thing I would agree with you and @BobRyan on doctrinally, it is that we should not put a comma where God intended a period (people familiar with a nasty UCC ad campaign from the mid 2000s will recall what I am talking about).

I am a SEA. Seventh-day Evagelical Adventist.
I am for .....
1. Using the scripture only as the basis of Faith.
2. the Need to be born again and have a personal relationship with Christ Jesus.
3. Examine all doctrine. I personally believe 80% is correct.
4. Adding a theology of Israel, since if is a fulfillment of Christ predictions, a sign of the End of Time and natural conclusion of Covenant Theology.
5. I am for an open Historicist method of interpretating prophecy.
6. I am for Soul Sleep in the OT for believer and unbelievers, eternal life in heaven upon death for believers and Soul Sleep for unbelievers in the NT. (SEA)
7. I am for pre-trib rapture. We go up to the marriage supper of the Lamb, at the beginning of the tribulation. The 2nd coming is at the end fo the Tribulation and Marriage Supper of the Lamb. As the name implies the MSOL is before the church is united with Christ.
8. I am for the 1000 years on Earth.
9. The New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven at the End of the 1000 years.
10 . The covenant of Heaven & Earth being Changed after Christ 1000 year reign.
11. All covenants continual & still binding, once the covenant is established.
12. If you are part of a later covenant you are bound & benefited by all the prior covenants
13. The Church as the continuation of the Garden of Eden and the Holy Place
14. The Church as the New Garden of Eden
15. The Church as the New Holy Place.
16. Islam as God's Law enforcers. The fulfillment of Revelation 9.The "star" that fell was Mohammad and the Locust is Islam. Islam called by God to enforce God's law went to far and obscured & diminished the light of God and choked the Spirit.
17 William Miller as the Agent of the Loud Cry and the Beginning of the 1. Angels message. Darwin & Darby & Miller all stated there work at the exact same time in the exact same year.
18. The SDA church as the agent God used to preserve and protect the Knowledge of the Creator and to ressurrect Sabbath Keeping the entire Christian world.
19. The Millerite movement & SDA church As the agent of 3 angels of Revelation and the fulfilmet Daniel and the 1260, 1290 and the 1335 of Daniel 12
20. The King of the North & King of the South, symbolically representing the fight between the Catholic Church, the Divine Right of Kings & Athiesim forms of Government. On Going at this time.
21. The Catholic Church as legal inheriters of the Key of Peter and the Legal successor of Peter and administrative representative of Christ.
22. The Catholic Chruch as Corrupt. Repeating the Sins of Solomon. Making compermise with the Worldly Governments and instituting false doctrine and false practices.
23. The Catholic Church & the Evangelical Church as the Beast, 666 , is the number of Solomon God's corrupt man.
24. the tribulation as a disciplinary action on the world and God's Church. The Church that does not get raptured. Must go Through the tribulation because of it's disobedance in not following God plan for life, morals, government and economics.
25. The Rainbow as the Symbol of God & Life and His Government
26. The Rainbow as the Symbol of the Trinity. Three primary colors, red, yellow and blue make up 1 beam of light, hence 3 in 1
27 The Trinity as the pattern and model for the human family. Father, Mother & offspring. 3 in 1
28. The Trinity as symbolized in Creation. Air, Land & Sea, 3 in 1

this is all I could think of right now I will edit this if there is more.

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
This post is specifically for non Adventist who are posting on this site or lurking. Another member of The forum who has been posting. Has stated that he is debunked the objections raised in my original post. My question to those who are not Adventists who are posting or lurking. Is this.

Since you asked me to post this here on your thread - I am adding this post - and it may help with those who wonder why I view those false accusations as "fluff".

===================================

BobRyan Said:

What you got was NO QUOTE from Ellen White saying anything at all about Jupiter or Saturn -- and you keep that up AS IF we simply "wont notice" even AFTER we debunked you on that right from the start.

How in the world is that sort of appeal to "low information reader" tactic , repeated over and over again supposed to help your case? That tactic only works on Spectrum.

How is this the least bit confusing for you?

Everyone with basic reading skills can see that you are failing here.

Adventist Heretic said: "Bob either you are evil or you're delusional."

Maybe my text above was unclear to you.
To be clear - I was not doubting your ability to resort to ad hominem or derogatory slurs

What I said was " you have NO QUOTE from Ellen White saying anything at all regarding Saturn or Jupiter" -- and we both know you would quote it if you had it.

What part of this is unclear??

Adventist Heretic said: "BobYou are right technically the quote doesn't say Jupiter .

nor does it say Saturn.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???
You have a false accusation saying you have it - when in fact you don't

How is this even a little bit difficult for you???

Adventist Heretic said: "If that's the best you got you better pack it in.

You must be joking?

Are you familiar with "reason"? "logic"?

Adventist Heretic said: "But James White confirmed

Is it your wild claim that James White saw people on Saturn?? seriously?
If is it your wild claim James went to Saturn or Jupiter and confirmed something? Seriously?

You are shooting your credibility in the foot. And you keep doing it on this one.

Adventist Heretic said: "that that was the case she was talking about those planets Jupiter Saturn and what other one.

Because he went on vacation with Ellen White to Jupiter or Saturn and that is what they saw?
Do you have anything at all that informs you that James was the authority to "Confirm Jupiter or Saturn" on anything at all?

WE all know you do not. NOR do you claim James had a vision about it - and we all know it!!

Adventist Heretic said: "So you have no grounds for your objection.

You have yet to state a single fact about how James could possibly confirm anything at all about Jupiter or Saturn - you just keep saying it as if it is not the nonsensical statement that it is.

State an actual fact about Ellen White on this or else make the statement that your real interest is to prove the James White did not know much about Jupiter or Saturn (which would be honest but you wont do it because you know none of us ever claimed James White was the authority on who or what is on Saturn or Jupiter) -- obviously.

How is this even a little bit difficult to follow? How is it that when you repeatedly shoot your own credibility in the foot with fluff like this -- all you got is name-calling, pejoratives, and ad hominem to fall back on when called out on it??

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

duplicate post

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
ADVENTISTS LIVING IN 1856 WILL BE ALIVE TO SEE JESUS RETURNOver 135 years ago, Mrs. White made another fascinating prophecy during a meeting in Battle Creek, Michigan in May of 1856. She declared that some of those who were at the meeting would die, and become "food for worms," and that some of them would live on and become "subjects of the seven last plagues," while still others would "remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus".
Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 131-132.

Jonah said Nineveh would be wiped out in 40 days.

Jeremiah 18 teaches the doctrine of "conditional prophecy" like this

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Some would call this "grade school basics" but others are kind of foggy on the principle. Each one has free will and can choose as they wish.

Adventist Heretic said:
There are conditonal prophecy's, but how do you tell between a failed prophecy and a conditional prophecy? how am I supposed to tell?

That speaks volumes -- without knowing the answer to that - you post false accusations "anyway"?

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
This post is specifically for non Adventist who are posting on this site or lurking. Another member of The forum who has been posting. Has stated that he is debunked the objections raised in my original post. My question to those who are not Adventists who are posting or lurking. Is this.

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the original objections to Ellen White?

2. Do you believe more or less in Ellen White based upon the response of the Ellen white supporters?

While I would like to know if any of the false accusations in the first few posts of this thread appear to be significant and if so pick the best 3.

I would also strongly object to the flawed logic that someone here who is non-SDA should "believe in Ellen White" (not sure what you even mean by that) -- based on the kind of material you are focused on here. What is more, actual Adventists DO NOT argue for accepting the teaching/statements of Ellen White before first doing a doctrine-by-doctrine comparison in the Bible -- until then no acceptance is even possible according to actual Adventists. Your second question speaks volumes about the gap in your view of this and what Adventists teach.

So that last question is baffling to almost every SDA I know of - no matter which side of the debate they may be on.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

Do you see what I am talking about? this is what we have to put up with. They actually thinks you won't notice the failed prophecy's and the eyewittness accounts of others. We should ignore the information because they want you too. do you see how this works? the idea that we are to ignore blatant statments of failuers of EGW because they want us to Do you see that? This is the statement that is has caused the problem

Direct Evidence

MRS. WHITE SAW ENOCH ON JUPITER OR SATURN

"The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. THE GRASS OF THE PLACE WAS LIVING GREEN, AND THE BIRDS THERE WARBLED A SWEET SONG. THE INHABITANTS OF THE PLACE WERE OF ALL SIZES; THEY WERE NOBLE, MAJESTIC, AND LOVELY ... I asked on of them why they were so much more lovely than those on earth ... Then I WAS TAKEN TO A WORLD WHICH HAD SEVEN MOONS. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated".
Early Writings, pp. 39-40 (emphasis added)

Eyewitness Testimony- He has direct contact with EGW and was at the meeting. You are being asked to ignore this clarification, Do you see how this works. This would stand up in a court of Law. but not with the supporters.
By the testimony of 2 or 3 wittnesses shall a thing be established
Ellen's husband, James White verified her vision. 1st Eyewitness

He wrote, "At our conference in Topsham, Maine, last Nov., Ellen has a vision of the handy works of God. SHE WAS GUIDED TO THE PLANETS JUPITER, SATURN, AND I THINK ONE MORE. After she came out of vision, she could give a clear description of their Moons, etc. ... It is well known that she knew nothing of astronomy, and could not answer one question in relation to the planets, before she had this vision." A Word to the "Little Flock", p. 22 (emphasis added).

Here is another 2nd eyewitness account.

"One evening, at the conference above mentioned, at the house of Mr. Curtiss and in the presence of Elder Bates, who was yet undecided in regard to these manifestations, Mrs. White, while in vision, began to talk about the stars, giving a glowing description of rosy-tinted belts which she saw across the surface of some planet, and added, 'I see four moons.' 'Oh,' said Elder Bates, 'she is viewing Jupiter!' Then having made motions as though traveling through space, she began giving a description of belts and rings in their ever-varying beauty, and said, 'I see seven moons.'7 Elder Bates exclaimed, 'She is describing Saturn.' Next she said, 'I see six moons,' and at once began a description of the 'opening heavens,' with its glory, calling it an opening into a region more enlightened." - J.N. Loughborough, Great Second Advent Movement, p. 258.
ESTABLISHED
Read more: Jesus is not blotting out sda sins. (lordship, believe, prayer) - Christianity - - Page 5 - City-Data Forum

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
ENGLAND WILL ATTACK THE UNITED STATES

In 1862 she predicted that "when England does declare war [against the North, during the civil war]. all nations will have an interest of their own to serve, and there will be general war, general confusion." The result will be that "this nation [the United States] will...be humbled into the dust".
Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 259.
American history clearly shows that England did not "declare war" against the United States during the Civil War, and the United States was not "humbled into the dust".

Backstory: The Trent Affair. EGW had her "vision" at the time this was going on.

The Trent Affair: Diplomacy, Britain, and the American Civil War - The National Museum of American Diplomacy

In 1861, as the Civil War was beginning at home, U.S. diplomats faced a unique dilemma. The United States needed to maintain relationships abroad. At the

diplomacy.state.gov

eleos1954 · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
Here is a short list of some of the failed prophecys of EGW. SDA's please explain why you hold to her authority when she has clearly failed. What is the point. How is that not rebellion and disobediance to the Lord?

7 False Predictions from Ellen G. White - Seventh Day Adventist
False prophecy #1.
Jerusalem will never be built up again, Early Writings, p. 75 - EGW FAILED

Jereusalem will be trampled under foot until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Luke 21:24 -Jesus - Fulfilled

False prophecy #2
England will attack the United STATES during the civil war Ellen White, Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 259. - FAILED

False Prophecy #3
The Civil War is a sign the Jesus is about to Return Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 260 -FAILED

False Prophecy #4
Jesus would return in a few months (1850) Early Writings, p. 58 - FAILED

False Prophecy #5 Adventist alive in 1856 would be alive to see Jesus return. Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, pp. 131-132. - FAILED, they are all dead.

False Prophecy #6 Christ would return BEFORE Slavery was Abolished.Early Writings, pp 35 - FAILED Slavery was abolished in 1864.

False Prophecy #7 She saw Enoch on Jupiter or Saturn Early Writings, pp. 39-40- Failed. No one lives on Jupiter or Saturn.

Ellen G. White's Teachings Compared with the Bible - Predictions of Ellen G. White
More quotes and failed prophecies of EGW.

DEUTERONOMY 18:20-22
20But if any prophet dares to speak a message in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or to speak in the name of other gods, that prophet must be put to death.”

21You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” 22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Ellen White
"God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work... bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil." (4T 230)

What do you have to say of this information and EGW authority now. Do you see why people have problems with EGW?

Context is important ... just as we can't take one or limited verses from the bible and apply it across the board .... nor should one do it with anyone else's writings. Ellen White was a very gifted author and she always reiterated that no matter it is the Bible only.

Have you read .... The Great Controversy in it's entirety? Have you read Steps to Christ in it's entirety? Have you read Desire of Ages in it's entirety? I would venture to say no ..... cherry picking is for cherries ... and by doing so does not encompass the totality of someone's written works.

Ms. White wrote approximately 155 books, about 5,000 periodical articles, and 200 pamphlets ... so posting a few "cherry picked" statements is hardly sufficient for one to come to a well researched conclusion about her writings.

Everybody should read The Great Controversy even if it's just for the verifiable history contained in it.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

eleos1954 said:
Context is important ... just as we can't take one or limited verses from the bible and apply it across the board .... nor should one do it with anyone else's writings. Ellen White was a very gifted author and she always reiterated that no matter it is the Bible only.

Have you read .... The Great Controversy in it's entirety? Have you read Steps to Christ in it's entirety? Have you read Desire of Ages in it's entirety? I would venture to say no ..... cherry picking is for cherries ... and by doing so does not encompass the totality of someone's written works.

Ms. White wrote approximately 155 books, about 5,000 periodical articles, and 200 pamphlets ... so posting a few "cherry picked" statements is hardly sufficient for one to come to a well researched conclusion about her writings.

Everybody should read The Great Controversy even if it's just for the verifiable history contained in it.

I have read all her works,. I hold a degree in SDA theology. Almost 20 years discussing these matters. I have even sold her books door to door on two separate occasions.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

BobRyan said:
While I would like to know if any of the false accusations in the first few posts of this thread appear to be significant and if so pick the best 3.

I would also strongly object to the flawed logic that someone here who is non-SDA should "believe in Ellen White" (not sure what you even mean by that) -- based on the kind of material you are focused on here. What is more, actual Adventists DO NOT argue for accepting the teaching/statements of Ellen White before first doing a doctrine-by-doctrine comparison in the Bible -- until then no acceptance is even possible according to actual Adventists. Your second question speaks volumes about the gap in your view of this and what Adventists teach.

So that last question is baffling to almost every SDA I know of - no matter which side of the debate they may be on.

You can object all you want and be angry all you want. But you don't play fair. Until Ellen White is no longer in your mindset. You will bring it up. Every SDA who takes their faith seriously will defer to Ellen White on matters of doctrine. Matters of interpretation. You are no exception. You've been caught red-handed.

Consulting Ellen White matters of doctrine. Other members on this forum who have caught you in the same act. The discussion on the abyss is a perfect example.

Because Ellen White endorsed a particular View you will not change your view on the abyss. It causes much confusion here. People are bewildered, they do not understand why you can't see the evidenc, until we point out you are using another standard. Then it becomes clear. So we must make everybody aware of the assumptions you are making when interpreting scripture. Since You consult Ellen Whites the criticism of her wrist fair game.

H&TR · Jul 31, 2023

BobRyan said:
I would also strongly object to the flawed logic that someone here who is non-SDA should "believe in Ellen White" (not sure what you even mean by that) -- based on the kind of material you are focused on here. What is more, actual Adventists DO NOT argue for accepting the teaching/statements of Ellen White before first doing a doctrine-by-doctrine comparison in the Bible -- until then no acceptance is even possible according to actual Adventists. Your second question speaks volumes about the gap in your view of this and what Adventists teach.

You'd have to be doctrinally (Sola Scriptura) an Adventist to believe in Ellen White's teachings.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

H&TR said:
You'd have to be doctrinally (Sola Scriptura) an Adventist to believe in Ellen White's teachings.

Explain how you came to that conclusion. You are literally saying you have to believe in the Bible alone in order to accept an additional standard. Umm??? What???

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

H&TR said:
You'd have to be doctrinally (Sola Scriptura) an Adventist to believe in Ellen White's teachings.

true.

Adventist Heretic said:
Explain how you came to that conclusion.

H&TR must be an Adventist apparently.

Must also know a thing or two about Bible doctrine and that Prophets are to be tested sola scriptura.

That's what reading the Bible will get you - an understanding of what the Bible says is the correct way to test prophets

Adventist Heretic said:
You are literally saying you have to believe in the Bible alone in order to accept an additional standard. Umm??? What???

Must be confusing for you -- to have that flawed defintion for sola scriptura testing.

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
You can object all you want and be angry all you want.

why would I be angry??

That fact that you are using such transparently flawed false accusations is making this somewhat of a field-day.

Adventist Heretic said:
You've been caught red-handed.

To do that you need a fact - an accusation that holds up to some degree of review of facts.
So far you are not doing that.

Adventist Heretic said:
Consulting Ellen White matters of doctrine.

Your "all Ellen White all the time thread" is an example of "your work" not mine. Your own thread debunks your claims at that point.

My threads are all "sola scriptura testing" of all doctrine and practice.

Adventist Heretic said:
Other members on this forum who have caught you in the same act. The discussion on the abyss is a perfect example.

I don't see any mention at all of the "Abyss" on this thread.

eleos1954 · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
I have read all her works,. I hold a degree in SDA theology. Almost 20 years discussing these matters. I have even sold her books door to door on two separate occasions.

ok then ... well I find her writings inspiring ... they are not a replacement for His written word (she says so herself) ... but non-the-less they are inspiring.

There are many christian authors out there .... I may ... or may not agree with their writings in totality ... but that is not to say that they are of no value ... and don't consider them problematic.

Even so ... just because one holds a degree in something doesn't mean they are the only authority on something ... there are many current SDA ministers that hold a degree in SDA theology and don't necessarily agree with each other on some things.

I just think people should read things for themselves and come to their own conclusions as much as possible. You take issues with some of her writings ... ok ... others do not ... that's ok too.

I often see statements made by some that teaching of SDA's as being heretics. To them .... I say to remember Jesus was accused of being a heretic, let us not forget that.

I am not a member of the SDA church .... I study His Word on my own, read about other theologies and beliefs .... have a wide interest of things surrounding His Written Word, history, archeology etc.

In the end .... each of us comes to our own conclusions ... but I always come back to this .... reason with the scriptures ... It's a journey well worth taking and one doesn't need degree to take it.

God Bless and journey on.

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
MRS. WHITE ALIVE WHEN JESUS RETURNS
Mrs. White predicted that she would be among "the living saints" when Jesus returned.
"Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of Son of man.... Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, "Alleluia!" as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment WE WERE CHANGED AND CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM to meet the Lord in the air".
Early Writings, pp 15-16 (emphasis added).

People that READ their Bibles know this ..

Paul said in 1 Thess 4:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

False accusations of "Fluff" , hay , stubble , straw quality may choose to condemn that sort of "We who alive and remain" language -- but those who read their Bibles often know better than to do that.

Obviously.

===========================

yep... its a field say for sure - so far.

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
You're treading a dangerous road here; EGW is a failed prophetess in much the same way that Ezekiel is a failed prophet because he prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would raise to the ground Tyre, that men would dry their fishing nets on the rocks where her foundations once stood. But Nebuchadnezzar did no such thing, nor did Alexander the great, 300 years later, nor has anyone to this day since Tyre's foundations are still visible today and the 'island' which once was her stronghold is still occupied today, despite Ezekiel's prophecy that it would never be occupied again.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/3a/08/493a08e6b6bc01962b0d951c30b262b0.jpg

This is an insightful post.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 31, 2023

T

eleos1954 said:
ok then ... well I find her writings inspiring ... they are not a replacement for His written word (she says so herself) ... but non-the-less they are inspiring.

they can be inspiring, that is not in debate, but does that make them on the same level as the scripture? No. Does that make her a prophet?NO that is the problem. if they SDA church could just say, she is not a prophet, or a source of authority, but a good author that would be fine but that is not the case. You have to bow and yeild to ANYTHING she says.

eleos1954 said:
There are many christian authors out there .... I may ... or may not agree with their writings in totality ... but that is not to say that they are of no value ... and don't consider them problematic.

she is not just any author that is not her claim or the claim of the SDA church.

eleos1954 said:
Even so ... just because one holds a degree in something doesn't mean they are the only authority on something ... there are many current SDA ministers that hold a degree in SDA theology and don't necessarily agree with each other on some things.

I don't claim to be the only authority on the subject matter, but I am an authority on the subject. I know SDA theology and History and I know the issues with Ellen White and how she is viewed and used by the SDA church. I was active for over 40 years in the church. I still attend.

eleos1954 said:
I just think people should read things for themselves and come to their own conclusions as much as possible. You take issues with some of her writings ... ok ... others do not ... that's ok too.

that is true and a good attitude but you need to also know the assumptions the people you are reading and consulting with, not every thing is good, not everyone has good motives.

eleos1954 said:
I often see statements made by some that teaching of SDA's as being heretics. To them .... I say to remember Jesus was accused of being a heretic, let us not forget that.

SDA's can be good Christians and are often unfairly targeted and misrepresented by people who thing doctrine only is the basis of being a christian. not being born again.

eleos1954 said:
I am not a member of the SDA church .... I study His Word on my own, read about other theologies and beliefs .... have a wide interest of things surrounding His Written Word, history, archeology etc.

that is good., but SDA's don't read other people stuff. until they drop EGW because they have the "TRUTH" everyone else is wrong. Because EGW said so.

eleos1954 said:
In the end .... each of us comes to our own conclusions ... but I always come back to this .... reason with the scriptures ... It's a journey well worth taking and one doesn't need degree to take it.

that is a great attitude to have. I only wish SDA's could have that. When you know everything because you have a modern prophet you can't take the journey you try to convince everyone else of your truth. Look at the Mormons and JWs' The SDA's are in the same catagory, i know i used to be a missionary for them.

eleos1954 said:
God Bless and journey on.

SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

1. Do you think that the response to the original post has debunked the or objections to EGW

YES

NO

OTHER

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