SDA and after death

[RileyG]

What is your position?

Thanks

 

[Gary K]

What is your position?

Thanks

In a nutshell, it is soul sleep. We believe the body God created goes back to the ground from which from whence He took it, and the breathe of life He gave us returns to Him. We then lie asleep, as Jesus described death, until He returns at the second coming.

 

[BobRyan]

What is your position?

Thanks

John 11:10 But if anyone walks during the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will come out of it.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about actual sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus died, 15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let’s go to him.”

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Matt 10:28
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul survives death but it is in a dormant state at that point.

A person is a soul - and a person has a body. One body is the decaying body we have in this life 2 Cor 5:1-7 and the other body is the one we get at the coming of Christ - at the resurrection (or translation of the living) 1 Cor 15

 

[Freth]

What we don't believe:

Many Christians believe there are two components to a living person—a physical body and a spirit. That when we die our body decays but our spirit either goes to heaven or hell immediately. It's why many Christians think their loved ones are smiling down on them from heaven. This belief is not scriptural.
​

What we do believe (scriptural):

• The physical body + the breath of life = the living soul.
• When we die:
  • The breath of life leaves us and returns to God.
  • Who we were falls into a sleep state awaiting resurrection (commonly known as death).
    
  • The physical body decays, eventually to dust.

What about Revelation 6:9-10 which speaks of the souls under the altar crying out for vengeance?

Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Strong's G5590 soul (psychē):

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
         1. of animals
         2. of men
   2. life
   3. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul
2. the soul
   1. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
   2. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
   3. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

The gift of life given by God is the breath of life, which is also found in the blood (i.e. the ability of blood to carry life-sustaining oxygen). It returns to God after we die. Thus the report of our breath returning back to God due to martyrdom would indeed cry out to God for vengeance, just as the blood of Abel cried out to God (see Genesis 4:10).

This shows that God is intimately aware of our breath of life, because it is He that gives it to us, and it is He that it returns to. However, the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The breath of life is not our consciousness that we had as living beings, it is what sustained us. Who we are/were remains on earth, awaiting resurrection, in a state of dormancy, having no knowledge of anything.

If you want to know more, you can find a detailed explanation on our beliefs page.

The other aspect that hasn't been mentioned yet is the grave (hell;hades), which is the "place" (i.e. the concept of) where we sleep, awaiting resurrection. According to Revelation 20:14, death (sleep awaiting resurrection) and hell (the grave) are thrown into the lake of fire (the actual fiery "hell") at judgment, as they are no longer necessary. There is no more death (sleep awaiting resurrection) and there is no more hell (the grave).

In our resurrected state we still have physical bodies, but we are raised incorruptible (where before we were corruptible). Likewise, those still alive are changed.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.​

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
​

Conclusion: In all of the above, we can see that there is never a separate spirit aspect of our being that separates from the body and goes to heaven or hell, as in the traditional sense many Christians believe. Nor is there a new state of being for us; we remain physical beings—before death and after resurrection—and our gift of life is still the breath of life that God gives us—which makes us living souls. The state of being asleep in death is separate from the physical body which decays and eventually returns to dust.

 

[RileyG]

Thanks everyone

 

[SavedSinner777]

Thanks everyone

It should be remembered that soul sleep was taught by certain early church fathers, and was ultimately rejected because it contradicted the practice of praying to Mary and the saints:

First to third centuries[edit]
The earliest unambiguous instance of Christian mortalism is found in Tatian's Address to the Greeks from the second half of the second century. Tatian writes: "The soul is not in itself immortal... If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved."[78] Tatian's contemporary Athenagoras of Athens came close to mortalism by teaching that souls sleep dreamlessly between death and resurrection: "[T]hose who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life."[79]

In Octavius, an account of a debate between a Pagan and a Christian by Marcus Minucius Felix, the Christian in the debate takes mortalism to be a matter of common agreement:

"But who is so foolish or so brutish as to dare to deny that man, as he could first of all be formed by God, so can again be re-formed; that he is nothing after death, and that he was nothing before he began to exist; and as from nothing it was possible for him to be born, so from nothing it may be possible for him to be restored?"[80]

Fourth to seventh centuries[edit]
Some Syriac writers such as Aphrahat, Ephrem and Narsai believed in the dormition, or "sleep", of the soul, in which "...souls of the dead...are largely inert, having lapsed into a state of sleep, in which they can only dream of their future reward or punishments."[81] John of Damascus denounced the ideas of some Arab Christians as thnetopsychism ("soul death"). Eustratios of Constantinople (after 582) denounced this and what he called hypnopsychism ("soul sleep").[82] The issue was connected to that of the intercession of saints. The writings of Christian ascetic Isaac of Nineveh (d. 700), reflect several perspectives which include mortalism.[83]
Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

In this video, Doug Batchelor goes over the many Biblical passages on the state of the dead:

Probably the most important question we should ask is this: Would an all-loving God send countless people to eternal conscious torment in hell for a relatively brief lifetime of sin? Or is it more consistent with God's character that, on judgement day, the wicked will be annihilated?

John 3:16 says that those who believe in Him will have everlasting life, not those who disbelieve, and Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, not everlasting conscious torment.

 

[public hermit]

What we don't believe:

Many Christians believe there are two components to a living person—a physical body and a spirit. That when we die our body decays but our spirit either goes to heaven or hell immediately. It's why many Christians think their loved ones are smiling down on them from heaven. This belief is not scriptural.
​

What we do believe (scriptural):

• The physical body + the breath of life = the living soul.
• When we die:
  • The breath of life leaves us and returns to God.
  • We fall into a sleep state awaiting resurrection (commonly known as death).
    
  • The physical body decays, eventually to dust.

What about Revelation 6:9-10 which speaks of the souls under the altar crying out for vengeance?

Revelation 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Strong's G5590 soul (psychē):

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
         1. of animals
         2. of men
   2. life
   3. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul
2. the soul
   1. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
   2. the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
   3. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

The gift of life given by God is the breath of life, which is also found in the blood (i.e. the ability of blood to carry life-sustaining oxygen). It returns to God after we die. Thus the report of our breath returning back to God due to martyrdom would indeed cry out to God for vengeance, just as the blood of Abel cried out to God (see Genesis 4:10).

This shows that God is intimately aware of our breath of life, because it is He that gives it to us, and it is He that it returns to. However, the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). The breath of life is not our consciousness that we had as living beings, it is what sustained us. Who we are/were remains on earth, awaiting resurrection, in a state of dormancy, having no knowledge of anything.

If you want to know more, you can find a detailed explanation on our beliefs page.

The other aspect that hasn't been mentioned yet is the grave (hell;hades), which is the "place" (i.e. the concept of) where we sleep, awaiting resurrection. According to Revelation 20:14, death (sleep awaiting resurrection) and hell (the grave) are thrown into the lake of fire (the actual fiery "hell") at judgment, as they are no longer necessary. There is no more death (sleep awaiting resurrection) and there is no more hell (the grave).

Upon resurrection, we still have physical bodies, but we are raised incorruptible. Likewise, those still alive are changed.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.​

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
​

Conclusion: In all of the above, we can see that there is never a separate spirit aspect of our being that separates from the body, nor is it a new state of being for us. We remain physical beings, and our gift of life is still the breath of life that God gives us—which makes us living souls.

How does that guarantee continuity between the person who dies, sleeps, and rises again. Does God give the same breath back again (since their is no soul/spirit separable from the body)? How does the SDA position ensure continuity? Does that question make sense or no?

 

[SavedSinner777]

How does that guarantee continuity between the person who dies, sleeps, and rises again.

God has an infinite memory.

 

[public hermit]

God has an infinite memory.

So, when God gives breath back it retains the memory of life and death. Is it the same body?

 

[SavedSinner777]

Is it the same body?

This is the answer to your questions:

Glory of Our Immortalized Resurrection Bodies
1. RESURRECTION OF BODY INDISPENSABLE TO FUTURE LIFE
According to the New Testament, a bodily resurrection is indispensable to our future Immortality. Paul declares that without such a consummation of God’s redemptive purpose, “they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished” (1 Corinthians 15:16-18). There would be no restoration of the person. So the resurrection body is involved in the promised gift of immortal life, bestowed at the Advent. “This mortal must put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:53)—something it had not before possessed. It is a bodily resurrection that gives reality and substance to our forthcoming immortal life. (The thought of discarnate immortal souls is wholly un-Biblical. Shades, floating about in mystic aerial regions, are totally foreign to Holy Writ. Such a notion stems from Greek philosophy.) CFF1 476.4

The human personality requires a resurrection body as an instrument for further life, thought, and activity. That is an integral part of the change, or quickening (Romans 8:11) process, a resurrection-translation act of God, to take place at the Second Advent. The record is clear: “He which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus” (2 Corinthians 4:14). His was an actual bodily resurrection, albeit with a glorified body. But this involves the quickening of our mortal bodies. And this too is imperative but conditional: CFF1 477.1

“If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [from zoopoieo, “to make alive,” “give life,” especially eternal life] your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you” (Romans 8:11). CFF1 477.2

This relationship between the present mortal body and the future glorified body is highly important. It is sown in “dishonour” and “weakness,” and raised in “glory” and “power” (1 Corinthians 15:43). Here is the inspired description: CFF1 477.3

“It [the body] is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: ... it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” “To every seed his own body” (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 38). CFF1 477.4

This latter expression cannot be overemphasized. Identity and personality will be preserved. CFF1 477.5

2. CONTINUITY OF IDENTITY AND PERSONALITY PRESERVED
This does not mean that the same identical particles of matter at the moment of death will reunite to form the same body in the resurrection. There is a progressive change of bodily structure throughout our present life. But the same essential organization is maintained in the provision of God, and the same personality is preserved without change. The body of the resurrection will maintain the same recognizable pattern and personality. CFF1 477.6

Even the identity of the same Rhine or Mississippi, the Nile, Hudson, or Amazon, remains despite the passage of thousands of years. Not a drop of water now flowing is identical with the river that flowed at the time of its discovery, yet it is the identical, recognizable river. This, of course, is a crude illustration, but it affords a suggestion. CFF1 478.1

Further, Paul’s reference to the body as the “seed,” suggests some sort of vital connection—the future counterpart and the seed from which it springs. There is identity, but not a physical connection in the sense that the stalk is built directly from the structure of the seed. “Thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain” (1 Corinthians 15:37). There is continuing personal identity, the continuing core of personality. However, the death of the seed is involved—“That which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die” (1 Corinthians 15:36). Christ touches on this same thought: “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit” (John 12:24). CFF1 478.2

Then comes His explanation: “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal” (John 12:25). CFF1 478.3

As noted, though the physical form of man is constantly changing and being renewed throughout this life, he continues to be the same person—as the new materials are organized and integrated into the same continuing body. We are able to identify the child we knew with the man we now see. CFF1 478.4

3. RESURRECTION BODIES TO BE VASTLY DIFFERENT
As to the precise nature of the resurrection bodies—“How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?” (1 Corinthians 15:35)—the answer is not revealed. John says, “It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him” (1 John 3:2). There were quibblers in apostolic days as in ours. These Paul rebuked. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52), as Paul twice emphasizes. All infirmities and defects and earthly limitations will vanish. In Old Testament times job was waiting until his “change” should come (Job 14:14). CFF1 479.1

As stated, the precise nature of that change has not been revealed. It is beyond our present knowledge and comprehension. It is a “spiritual body” in contrast with our present “natural body.” Paul compares it with a bare kernel of wheat planted in the ground and the sturdy stalk that comes from it. In the glory of the resurrection body the contrast is between mortality and corruption, and Immortality and incorruption. Christ’s risen body, with its exemption from the previous laws of time, space, and movement, suggests the nature of the change, or contrast. But we must leave it there. CFF1 479.2

4. “SPIRITUAL BODIES” PERFECTLY ADAPTED TO RESURRECTION LIFE
Paul assures us that Christ will “fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory” (Philippians 3:21, A.R.V.). He presses on the tremendous “change” (1 Corinthians 15:50, 51) that will take place, and compares our present and future bodies as being that of “bodies terrestrial” and “celestial bodies” (1 Corinthians 15:40). He makes the contrast between the pale, dim “glory of the moon” and the brilliant, vitalizing “glory of the sun” (1 Corinthians 15:41). And he adds, “So also is the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:42). CFF1 479.3

He contrasts the “image of the earthy” with the “image of the heavenly,” and the “bare grain” with the “body that shall be” (1 Corinthians 15:37-49). The contrast is between “dishonour” and “glory,” and “weakness” and “power.” Paul categorically declares, “There is a natural body [for this life], and there is a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:44), for the life to come. “As we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly” (1 Corinthians 15:49). He does not define or explain the spiritual body. But this we do know: This present, earthly “flesh and blood” body “cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50), any more than corruption can “inherit” incorruption. CFF1 479.4

Of this we may be sure: The “spiritual body” will be perfectly adapted to the plane of the resurrection or immortal life to come. And the earthly limitations of corruption and mortality will be put off forever. And what we “put on” is a “building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens” (2 Corinthians 5:1). That is the source of the resurrection body, and its glorified character. Death and disintegration will be vanquished forevermore. And all this is through Christ Jesus. For “when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4).
The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 1

 

[public hermit]

This is the answer to your questions:

It is, sort of. I think the assumption in other positions is that the soul guarantees continuity. However, I hear the SDA position as disregarded the existence of anything between death and resurrection. There is no soul in that in-between space. So, who is sleeping? There is no one sleeping. It's just that when God reinstates breath into a body it becomes the same person. And, that same person is not due to any continuity except that of the divine memory. Is that correct?

 

[Freth]

How does that guarantee continuity between the person who dies, sleeps, and rises again. Does God give the same breath back again (since their is no soul/spirit separable from the body)? How does the SDA position ensure continuity? Does that question make sense or no?

SavedSinner777 responded before I could.

Living Soul = Physical Body + Breath of Life
Dead Body (called "asleep") = Physical Body - Breath of Life

Scripture:

• God is in complete control of death (sleep) and utter destruction (Matthew 10:28*, 1 Corinthians 15:54-55).
  
• The hairs on our heads are numbered (Matthew 10:30, Luke 12:7). God is intimately aware of every aspect of who we are (Psalms 139).
  
• The dead are no longer remembered, and have no participation in the living whatsoever, neither do they praise the Lord (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Ecclesiastes 9:10, Psalms 115:17).
• We return to the dust of the earth (Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7**).
• We are asleep until resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-15, Psalms 13:3, Daniel 12:2).
• We are raised incorruptible from the grave (1 Corinthians 15:52).

* Matthew 10:28 "soul"; breath of life; Strong's G5590.
** Ecclesiastes 12:7 "spirit"; breath; Strong's H7307.
​

The breath of life is never described as having anything to do with who we are (our identity, our memories). Death is a state of sleep where we have no memories, and no participation in anything under the sun, or in heaven. Our bodies eventually decay to dust, which means the memory of who we are isn't stored in the body. God knows us better than we know ourselves, both mentally and physically. This then would mean that God retains who we are when we die.

So yes, the traditional concept of a soul being a spirit that flies to heaven upon death isn't something we believe, and the term "soul sleep" doesn't exactly fit.

 

[public hermit]

SavedSinner777 responded before I could.

Living Soul = Physical Body + Breath of Life
Dead Body = Physical Body - Breath of Life (in a sleep state, as per scripture)

Scripture:

• God is in complete control and can destroy us completely (Matthew 10:28, 1 Corinthians 15:54-55).
• The hairs on our heads are numbered (Matthew 10:30, Luke 12:7). God is intimately aware of every aspect of who we are (Psalm 139).
  
• The dead are no longer remembered, and have no participation in the living whatsoever, neither do they praise the Lord (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Ecclesiastes 9:10, Psalm 115:17).
• We return to the dust of the earth (Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7).
• We are asleep until resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-15, Psalm 13:3, Daniel 12:2).
• We are raised incorruptible from the grave (1 Corinthians 15:52).

The breath of life is never described as having anything to do with who we are (our identity, our memories). Death is a state of sleep where we have no memories, and no participation in anything under the sun, or in heaven. God knows us better than we know ourselves, both mentally and physically. This then would mean that God retains who we are when we die.

Thank you. That is what I'm gathering, I think. I have to say, this is an intriguing point of view. There is no doubt, in my mind anyway, that the usual conception folks having a disembodied soul is more a Platonic conception of the soul that is eternal and the body that is evil/matter, than a NT one where the soul/body is personhood - more closely aligned with Aristotle's hylomorphic compound.

Is the SDA position that there is a temporal period between death and resurrection, or could it be that at death, everyone is together in a resurrection state (i.e. a passing from a temporal realm to an eternal one)?

 

[SavedSinner777]

And, that same person is not due to any continuity except that of the divine memory.

I don't speak for the SDA church, but the infinite memory of God seems to be the obvious answer. How is that not a satisfying answer?

 

[Freth]

Thank you. That is what I'm gathering, I think. I have to say, this is an intriguing point of view. There is no doubt, in my mind anyway, that the usual conception folks having a disembodied soul is more a Platonic conception of the soul that is eternal and the body that is evil/matter, than a NT one where the soul/body is personhood - more closely aligned with Aristotle's hylomorphic compound.

Is the SDA position that there is a temporal period between death and resurrection, or could it be that at death, everyone is together in a resurrection state (i.e. a passing from a temporal realm to an eternal one)?

Daniel points to us being in the dust of the earth in a sleep state until the resurrection, which would be instantaneous from the moment of death to the moment of the resurrection, for the dead.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
​

This would then tend to support the fact that we remain in the earth until that moment of resurrection, and that nothing else happens for us until that moment.

 

[public hermit]

I don't speak for the SDA church, but the infinite memory of God seems to be the obvious answer. How is that not a satisfying answer?

I'm not going to say it's not satisfying. It's a first for me so I'll have to chew on it. I really didn't know any of this. Legitimate questions.

 

[public hermit]

Daniel points to us being in the dust of the earth in a sleep state until the resurrection, which would be instantaneous from the moment of death to the moment of the resurrection, for the dead.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
​

This would then tend to support the fact that we remain in the earth until that moment of resurrection, and that nothing else happens for us until that moment.

Thank you. Again, this is new to me so I'm curious.

 

[Freth]

Thank you. Again, this is new to me so I'm curious.

You're welcome. Thank you as well. It can be a touchy subject for some Christians, to even bring it up.

 

[SavedSinner777]

I'm not going to say it's not satisfying. It's a first for me so I'll have to chew on it. I really didn't know any of this. Legitimate questions.

It's important to remember that, if the doctrine of soul sleep is true, then you would have no perception of time whatsoever between your last breath on this earth and your first breath in the resurrection. It's not like there would be anything to fear.

 

[public hermit]

It's important to remember that, if the doctrine of soul sleep is true, then you would have no perception of time whatsoever between your last breath on this earth and your first breath in the resurrection. It's not like there would be anything to fear.

Yes, but it's also seems that no one is actually sleeping. There is no soul that is sleeping (correct me if that's off). Does SDA consider "soul sleep" pejorative?