Scriptures vs. Political Correctness

[JoeWill]

Have you ever spoken to a Jewish individual about it?

So, I have a question: Jesus used those words within the structure of a parable; He was telling a story. So if we then use the same terminology, are we doing Him an injustice? We're sullying His methodology, almost? It suddenly feels that way, a little.

Yeah, I'm in a bit of a turbulent debate about the Isaiah 53 passage now, at:

http://foru.ms/t5858522-isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion.html&page=10

The arguments are a bit more complex than they might seem, but it is the absolute closedness to the possibility that Isaiah 53 is a messianic passage that surprises me.


I think that in most cases we have to be careful not to judge people, beyond what we are called to communicate in the gospel message. To apply some of the harsher terminology of the parables to them, might be to make a judgement that is uncalled for and unhelpful in witness.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Yeah, I'm in a bit of a turbulent debate about the Isaiah 53 passage now, at:

http://foru.ms/t5858522-isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion.html&page=10

The arguments are a bit more complex than they might seem, but it is the absolute closedness to the possibility that Isaiah 53 is a messianic passage that surprises me.


I think that in most cases we have to be careful not to judge people, beyond what we are called to communicate in the gospel message. To apply some of the harsher terminology of the parables to them, might be to make a judgement that is uncalled for and unhelpful in witness.

Agreed

Say, would you mind if I stopped in to have a look? It sounds really interesting.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The question was raised in a report, and then got split into a separate thread here but am curious as to your thoughts.

Verses like Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs..." by today's standards appear insulting, however they are scriptural, and, while politically incorrect, true. But obviously they run the risk of hurting the feelings of people.

So is the fact these verses are now insulting mean they should be laid to rest, in terms of actual useage? Or does its "insultingness" just tell us how wrong the world has gone?

Not gonna poll it

I've used that scripture frequently after it's obvious that I am hitting my head on a brick wall with someone who either doesn't believe or refuses to see the truth.

I ALWAYS give an explanation as to why, though. In the past, I've been accused of calling someone swine.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I've used that scripture frequently after it's obvious that I am hitting my head on a brick wall with someone who either doesn't believe or refuses to see the truth.

I ALWAYS give an explanation as to why, though. In the past, I've been accused of calling someone swine.

Ooh, that's interesting. When you say you've used it frequently after... did you use it as a last resort almost?

Also (sorry for all the questions ) when you explained, what did you say?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

It was ALWAYS a last resort. It pains my heart when I realize that the heart of the person I'm talking to appears to be hardened to the truth.

As far as explaining, I would just say that when a person is no longer listening, it's no good posting scripture to them. Pigs have no clue what to do with pearls...all they would do is trample all over them, probably try to eat them and in general treat the pearls like the dirt they roll in. It is similar with a person whose heart is hardened. They do not understand the gift that has been given to them, nor do they wish to. They will simply trample over it and treat it like dirt.

Sometimes I say/post something like this more for any other Christians who might be participating in the discussion as well. Some really don't know when to give up, which can be seen as admirable but can also be foolish. Circular debates never get anywhere, ya know?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

It was ALWAYS a last resort. It pains my heart when I realize that the heart of the person I'm talking to appears to be hardened to the truth.

As far as explaining, I would just say that when a person is no longer listening, it's no good posting scripture to them. Pigs have no clue what to do with pearls...all they would do is trample all over them, probably try to eat them and in general treat the pearls like the dirt they roll in. It is similar with a person whose heart is hardened. They do not understand the gift that has been given to them, nor do they wish to. They will simply trample over it and treat it like dirt.

Sometimes I say/post something like this more for any other Christians who might be participating in the discussion as well. Some really don't know when to give up, which can be seen as admirable but can also be foolish. Circular debates never get anywhere, ya know?

Oh, completely true. They eventually just become about one-upmanship, anyway, and invariably spiral away from the actual issue.

So when you've used those exact verses, have you used it in the same context, or has it more been that you've literally likened someone to a pig with pearls?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh, completely true. They eventually just become about one-upmanship, anyway, and invariably spiral away from the actual issue.

So when you've used those exact verses, have you used it in the same context, or has it more been that you've literally likened someone to a pig with pearls?

I've used it in the same context. I've never tried to tell someone they were a pig and I was giving them pearls (but again, someone has taken it literally). Sometimes I've even used the analogy without the pigs. I've used a beggar on the street corner who is given a prada purse, but all he wants is money. Sometimes that sounds a little better, and the analogy is still the same. When using this scenario, I make the assumption that the beggar doesn't realize that the purse is worth a lot of money, which really, when we think about it, is how unbelievers view the Word. They have no idea what a precious gift it is.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Yeah, I'm in a bit of a turbulent debate about the Isaiah 53 passage now, at:

http://foru.ms/t5858522-isaiah-53-a-contextual-discussion.html&page=10

I read through... that's seriously hi-octane debating, Joe. You handled some of that very, *very* graciously.

The atheist debating... is he formerly Jewish? Or is he just a theologian? I can understand muffler's rancour somewhat, because your beliefs directly negate his own, but I was suprised to see an atheist argue against it so fervently.

And the suggestion that Isaiah 53 could possibly be a prophesy about John the Baptist was just inexplicable. I noticed that chap was a Muslim (if am right about his icon) but the need to deny the Truth, to the point of asking such a wayward question... surprising.

I fear that may always be the issue: until God open their eyes, and hearts, they will demand substantiation that's impossible to give, while expecting you to accept their interpretation as, if you'll forgive the pun, gospel.

Whether it's wilful "blindness" or literally an inability to see into it spiritually rather than semantically, I feel so sorry for them, because He is right there waiting for them to see Him

I've used it in the same context. I've never tried to tell someone they were a pig and I was giving them pearls (but again, someone has taken it literally). Sometimes I've even used the analogy without the pigs. I've used a beggar on the street corner who is given a prada purse, but all he wants is money. Sometimes that sounds a little better, and the analogy is still the same. When using this scenario, I make the assumption that the beggar doesn't realize that the purse is worth a lot of money, which really, when we think about it, is how unbelievers view the Word. They have no idea what a precious gift it is.

The beggar/purse analogy is a wonderful one What's generally the reaction when you use that example? And you're right, it does go back to how they view the Lord. They have a winning lottery tocket. They can either hand it in and win the jack-pot or, upon discovering they've run out of rolling papers for a cigarette, use the ticket instead and watch it burn.

Tell me, do you see political correctness as something which has hampered Christians being able to witness effectively? Not that we no longer can, but that we've had to adapt in order to "fit in"?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The beggar/purse analogy is a wonderful one What's generally the reaction when you use that example? And you're right, it does go back to how they view the Lord. They have a winning lottery tocket. They can either hand it in and win the jack-pot or, upon discovering they've run out of rolling papers for a cigarette, use the ticket instead and watch it burn.

Tell me, do you see political correctness as something which has hampered Christians being able to witness effectively? Not that we no longer can, but that we've had to adapt in order to "fit in"?

Most of the time those people tell me they have no use for a prada when they can get a designer knock-off for $10, so the analogy appears to be lost on them, in a way. My husband has used the lottery ticket analogy before, too.

PC hasn't hampered me, yet. Although some people tend to confuse political correctness with being nice. Fact is, regardless of how I say something like "practicing homosexuals are an abomination to God", it's going to get misconstrued as being politically incorrect. Or if I say "if you don't believe in God you're going to hell" that's politically incorrect, too, because I'm somehow not being nice.

Hope that makes sense.

I think in the near future we'll face more problems with this. As in other countries, I think it will become somewhat criminal for Christians to preach that homosexuality is wrong. We currently have missionaries in jail in Sweden for doing this, as well as preaching against women in the pulpit. How soon this concept reaches the good old US is beyond me...sometimes I hope that I am dead in my grave before it happens.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The question was raised in a report, and then got split into a separate thread here but am curious as to your thoughts.

Verses like Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs..." by today's standards appear insulting, however they are scriptural, and, while politically incorrect, true. But obviously they run the risk of hurting the feelings of people.

So is the fact these verses are now insulting mean they should be laid to rest, in terms of actual useage? Or does its "insultingness" just tell us how wrong the world has gone?

Not gonna poll it

no scripture should ever be 'laid to rest' in terms of its use.

Those things are absolutely true, but people need to keep things in perspective.

Someone may be ignorant and piggish in their regard for truth, or understanding, and still be a person loved by God.

Such verses should be used to remind ourselves not to engage in useless conversation with people who are incapable of respecting or understanding what we are saying.

They should not be used to deliberately insult people, or to justify self, since neither use will help anyone understand your view, or make them more receptive to it.

They could conceivably used to caution someone who should know better but is behaving boorishly as well.

 

[IamRedeemed]

It was just as insulting then actually. And also just as true. And it was also inside instructions to Disciples of Christ and not something we are supposed to say to the "dogs and pigs" (I have personally been guilty of relaying this info here, once or twice in the CPE forums, but I should not have said it, but just done it, which I did dust my feet of one forum there in particular) I recall pointing it out on one occasion, due to the verse following which is "lest they turn and rend you". Which is what occurs in CPE, and at that moment was a case and point.
But again, it isn't something we are supposed to say to whom the shoe fits, but something we are supposed to do or not do when we find we are among those of whom the shoe fits. We are to dust our feet as a sign unto them, and take our peace back with us.

God bless.

The question was raised in a report, and then got split into a separate thread here but am curious as to your thoughts.

Verses like Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs..." by today's standards appear insulting, however they are scriptural, and, while politically incorrect, true. But obviously they run the risk of hurting the feelings of people.

So is the fact these verses are now insulting mean they should be laid to rest, in terms of actual useage? Or does its "insultingness" just tell us how wrong the world has gone?

Not gonna poll it

 

[JoeWill]

The atheist debating... is he formerly Jewish? Or is he just a theologian? I can understand muffler's rancour somewhat, because your beliefs directly negate his own, but I was suprised to see an atheist argue against it so fervently.

Whether it's wilful "blindness" or literally an inability to see into it spiritually rather than semantically, I feel so sorry for them, because He is right there waiting for them to see Him.

The Jewish faith is a strange thing. I think that the Jewish atheist in the debate strongly identifies with the scriptures and the standard Jewish intepretations of them, even without believing in God. It is part of his ethnic identity. That is why I keep giving examples of Jewish traditions that hold to a Messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53. It is important for Jewish people to see that you do not stop being Jewish if you decide to believe in Jesus.

Somewhere, the Apostle Paul wrote of a veil being over these people's eyes when they read the scriptures. I think God has given me some more points to make, so I will keep going for a bit.

Good luck with your application to be a mod.

 

[JoeWill]

The question was raised in a report, and then got split into a separate thread here but am curious as to your thoughts.

Verses like Matthew 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs..." by today's standards appear insulting, however they are scriptural, and, while politically incorrect, true. But obviously they run the risk of hurting the feelings of people.

So is the fact these verses are now insulting mean they should be laid to rest, in terms of actual useage? Or does its "insultingness" just tell us how wrong the world has gone?

According to the New King James Bible, Jude 1:22-23 reads:

22And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.


My interlinear Bibles confirm the above translation of the original Greek of the New Testament, but other Bibles translate the text slightly differently. The New International Version has:

22Be merciful to those who doubt;
23snatch others from the fire and save them;
to others show mercy, mixed with fear-
hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.


Is Jude 1:22-23 telling Christians to use fear to save people? How far should Christians use fear in today's PC society, and with whom?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

But again, it isn't something we are supposed to say to whom the shoe fits, but something we are supposed to do or not do when we find we are among those of whom the shoe fits. We are to dust our feet as a sign unto them, and take our peace back with us.

God bless.

See, that raises another interesting question At what point are we to shake the dust off?

According to the New King James Bible, Jude 1:22-23 reads:

22And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.


My interlinear Bibles confirm the above translation of the original Greek of the New Testament, but other Bibles translate the text slightly differently. The New International Version has:

22Be merciful to those who doubt;
23snatch others from the fire and save them;
to others show mercy, mixed with fear-
hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.


Is Jude 1:22-23 telling Christians to use fear to save people? How far should Christians use fear in today's PC society, and with whom?

Actually, I was in the Witnessing forum today, and someone has asked whether we use the same methods in witnessing to everyone. See, Jude 22 seems to be saying be gentle; Jude 23 seems to be saying go all out and use both love/mercy, and fear. That would seem to indicate we are to witness differently depending on the person or the circumstance.

But how are we to know who will respond to what? The Holy Spirit guides us, but we still need to discern which method to use.

Regarding today's PCness, I can't see how it wouldn't affect how much fear we can use.

I was thinking today, actually, the world today is so much deeper in sin than ever before. Perhaps not in actions, or thoughts, but because of the acceptance of it as the norm. So perhaps our methods need to be more "aggressive" to counteract that.