scripture that supports Purgatory

[ebia]

whatever...

i have studied history

you obviously have not

as Cardinal Newman (convert to Catholicism) said

To be deep into history is to cease being Protestant..

Tosh.

 

[ebia]

sounds like Purgatory..
why no citation?? who says this?

interesting that you don't know

in any case, the souls in Purgatory are supposed to be present at the Tabernacle where Jesus' tangible Presence is in the Catholic (and only the CAtholic) Churches... I have NOT gotten an "OK" from the official Church to say that, but some book i read, t he author said this and she is very devout and wouldn't say it if it weret true... or it is HIGHLY unlikely she would... In any case, i have been in the Real PResence fairly often and i feel she is correct, that the souls in Purgatory are there.. makes sesne since Hell is below, Heaven is above and Purgatory... well, is somewhere "in between" as it were...

doesn't fit the view of purgatory my quote is taken from, does it.

Sounds like a highly unofficial view to me.

 

[MamaZ]

you speak of what Christ did...

Purgatory is about what WE sinful humans do... and how to get the impurities of our sins washed away so as to be ready for Heaven

we can go directly to Heaven?

sure we can... if we are saints...

are you a saint?

even saints have flaws... attachments to certain sins that must be dealt with... but of course, they get rid of that b4 death, usually, and that is why they are canonized... but Saint just means one is in Heaven... doesn't matter if he was in Purgatory first... Most of us go to Purgatory first... because ... we are human (etc). Padre Pio was in Purgagory for a few hours... and i belive he has been canonized..

anyway...

Purgatory is only logical...

many are not bad enough to be in eternal torment

and not good enough (holy enough) to go directly to Heaven

So Christs shed blood was not good enough for some to be washed clean?

 

[Dorothea]

The Orthodox Church has Maccabees 1, 2, and 3 in it OT, but it does not have a doctrine of Purgatory. It is rejected in Orthodoxy.

 

[truthHurts77]

How did you come to the conclusion tha the Roman Catholic Church was "the Original Church founded by Christ"?



How do you know this? Without the objective standard of scripture, how do you know the things the Catholic Church is telling you are really the Word of God? How do you know they're true without the objective standard of scripture to compare them to?



How gave you the idea that this passage refers to Purgatory? In reality, it refers to the Bema Seat Judgement and those who stand before this judgement are already saved. Why would they have to have their sins purged? And if this is Purgatory, then where does the passage say anything about sinners expiating their sins?



As with the last passage, how did you come to the conclusion that this passage is about Purgatory? This is the danger we face when we try to derive our doctrine from parables.

Remember, a parable isn't a literal account or a prescriptive passage, but is a story used as a rhetorical device to illustrate a spiritual truth. In this case, in this case, forgiveness.

Please note that you chose to begin the passage in v 23, which begins with the word "therefore". Any time you see the word "therefore", that tells you that the author or speaker is summarizing an important point. The previous verses would have told you what this passage is referring to.



Again, how do you find Purgatory in this verse?

TruthHurts, when it comes down to it, we both believe in Purgatory. The only difference is that you believe the Roman Catholic teaching that it is up to sinners to purge themselves of their sins, while we believe the purging was done by Christ in His atonement on the cross.



But doesn't 1 John 1:7 tell us that it's the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin? If His blood has cleansed us from all sin, then what sins are left?



Where does the Bible make that distinction?



Yes.



So, when Paul called people "saints", he was addressing people in Heaven?



How do you know? How do you know he's out now?



Who does Jesus say is not bad enough to be in eternal torment?



Is that why you believe that Christ founded a religious body that did not even exist until after His ascension?



I find that a little hard to believe, as you simply cannot teach Western Civ without devoting weeks to church history



And what was your background in history that gave you the ability to do this?



Should we believe everything you say?

i dont have time to read, much less answer, your entire post... will try to save it on my f-drive... read later..

but there are many ansers to the Q of How do you know this?

books, the Bible, the Church... common sense, EXPERIENCE (that greatest of all teachers besides Christ Himself) and...

the Holy Spirit

true, one cannot always tell absolutely what is being said by the HS and what is said by (whomever)... but... well, sometimes one cannot prove how one KNOWS something... but one knows just the same..

anyway...

you say how do i know "without the objective standard of the" Bible?

do you assume i dont know the Bible?

i have read the entire thing, some parts far more than once... (the NT)

i have had the Word READ to me at daily Mass for years and years...

anywya, again, i will answer the ot her stuff later.

But i have to say.. you protestants are VERY (most of you) against the Original Church... can't quite figure that one out... although i do know that Satan attacks the true Christians and their Church far mor than any other... jusst stands to reason since he said tht we would be "hated by all" ... because of HIm (St Mk 13 and other pgsg)

anyway... i guess its that nearly 500 yrs of protestant indoctrination..

that is rather a long time to be separated from the original truth.

i am going to try to find the book by Cardinal Newman who said that to be deep into history is to cease being protestant.. have been meaning to read that one 4 some time.. God bless

 

[truthHurts77]

Catholic college professors are agenda free.

went to a secular college

nice try

 

[MamaZ]

went to a secular college

nice try

So now answer my question. Is the blood of Jesus not enough to purge sins from some people? Or do you believe it is peoples actions that purge them of their sins?

 

[ebia]

i dont have time to read, much less answer, your entire post... will try to save it on my f-drive... read later..

but there are many ansers to the Q of How do you know this?

books, the Bible, the Church... common sense, EXPERIENCE (that greatest of all teachers besides Christ Himself) and...

the Holy Spirit

true, one cannot always tell absolutely what is being said by the HS and what is said by (whomever)... but... well, sometimes one cannot prove how one KNOWS something... but one knows just the same..

anyway...

you say how do i know "without the objective standard of the" Bible?

do you assume i dont know the Bible?

i have read the entire thing, some parts far more than once... (the NT)

i have had the Word READ to me at daily Mass for years and years...

anywya, again, i will answer the ot her stuff later.

But i have to say.. you protestants are VERY (most of you) against the Original Church... can't quite figure that one out... although i do know that Satan attacks the true Christians and their Church far mor than any other... jusst stands to reason since he said tht we would be "hated by all" ... because of HIm (St Mk 13 and other pgsg)

anyway... i guess its that nearly 500 yrs of protestant indoctrination..

that is rather a long time to be separated from the original truth.

i am going to try to find the book by Cardinal Newman who said that to be deep into history is to cease being protestant.. have been meaning to read that one 4 some time.. God bless

It's in An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1845)


If your going to read Newman can I recommend "Loss and Gain" instead?

 

[truthHurts77]

So now answer my question. Is the blood of Jesus not enough to purge sins from some people? Or do you believe it is peoples actions that purge them of their sins?

Jesus' Blood is NOT sufficient if one does not APPLY it

so the answer is:

both

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus' Blood is NOT sufficient if one does not APPLY it

so the answer is:

both

So Jesus Blood is not sufficient if one does not apply what? His blood? How do you suppose one applies it? and How does Purgatory do any good when it takes shed blood to forgive sins?

 

[truthHurts77]

if people never put themselves in Christ's PRESENCE

they will never know much about HIm

much less will they be purged sufficiently for Heaven..

some of hte saints have said there is no salvation outside the Church

and the Church has taught this...

yet it is not that simple because some people do manage to find Christ and live by his Words without finding the Church..

the devil doesn't like them finding His Original Church

in any case, even for this kind of person...

non Catholics are in Purgatoyr longer than Catholics..

and purgatory is painful...

it is Hell that comes to an end...

the saints tell us this... common sense tells us ... because change is always painful ... we get attached to the ways of this world...

and detaching is not easy

"work out your salvation with fear & trembling" (Phil 2:12)

anyway, Jesus said it also:

that FEW find the narrow way that leads to eternal life (ST MT 7)

even if a nonCatholic is saved, it is through the Catholic Church

Aftrer all, it is the Church that put together the new testament... 4th century

anyone who acknowleges the books of the nt, acknowleges the authority of the RCC that put together those books, chose which books to include and which not... etc

 

[MamaZ]

There is no salvation with out Christ. The Church cannot save one soul. For it is Christ who is the savior. I am not saved through any "Church" I am saved through the blood of Jesus and from being born from above which is from God. Someone has taught you unscriptual teachings.

 

[MamaZ]

It is not if we put ourselves in Christs presence but whether His Presence lives and abides in us.

 

[Albion]

Jesus' Blood is NOT sufficient if one does not APPLY it

so the answer is:

both

So if you don't "apply" Jesus' blood, thereby making it useless to you, then you can make up for it by your own actions?

What religion are we talking about anyway??

 

[truthHurts77]

So Jesus Blood is not sufficient if one does not apply what? His blood? How do you suppose one applies it? and How does Purgatory do any good when it takes shed blood to forgive sins?

4 one thing How do you know that Purgatory is not "the blood"???

some devout holy person said that the souls in Purgatory "conglomerate" around the Holy Tabernacles in the Church, where Christ's real Presence is (the RCC)... That is as close as you can get to Christ in this world.. well, actually the EXPOSED sacrament is as close as one gets, but the unexposed is very good also...

anyway... one must be IN Christ totally to be good ebnough (as it were) 4 Heaven, where there is NO sin... NO sin whatsoever... where there is not even the attachment to sin that we all have.. (attachment to our own sinful way of living, etc...)

if one does not cooperate with Christ and do ALL that he says (and he told us to do ALL - Mt 28:20) he cannot be saved.

some people pick and choose what they will do in Christ's Words..

this shows they do not love him as much as they think

you cannot serve 2 masters...

you will love one and hate the other...

you cannot serve (sin, the world, the flesh, the devil) and serve God @ the same time...

 

[truthHurts77]

not sure this answers your Q???




.​

 

[MamaZ]

Wow okay. Well Scripture shows me and My Spirit bears witness with HIS Spirit that I am indeed His Child as where I cry out abba Father. I do not need to go to any "Church" to be in His presence. Since His actual Presence lives in Me.. I am His temple. I pray that His presence resides in you by His Spirit.

 

[MamaZ]

So please tell me. Why did Christ die? If one thinks His blood is not sufficient then is that not denying all that scripture teaches us?

 

[ebia]

you are the one that trys to tell me that there is a purgatory to cleanse men from their sin. So I ask a simple question and get a deflection. hmmm okay well I can tell you that there is no need for purgatory for Christ shed His blood and rose from the dead.

A good understanding of purgatory, as in Spe Salvi, doesn't see it as opposed to or additional to the cross but as one aspect of how the crucifixion and resurrection does it's work. It's no more or less than the moment of ultimate encounter with Christ when everything about us that is still not in the image of God is burned away and we are finally adequate for his kingdom.

 

[ebia]

if people never put themselves in Christ's PRESENCE

they will never know much about HIm

much less will they be purged sufficiently for Heaven..

some of hte saints have said there is no salvation outside the Church

and the Church has taught this...

yet it is not that simple because some people do manage to find Christ and live by his Words without finding the Church..

the devil doesn't like them finding His Original Church

in any case, even for this kind of person...

non Catholics are in Purgatoyr longer than Catholics..

and purgatory is painful...

it is Hell that comes to an end...

the saints tell us this... common sense tells us ... because change is always painful ... we get attached to the ways of this world...

and detaching is not easy

"work out your salvation with fear & trembling" (Phil 2:12)

anyway, Jesus said it also:

that FEW find the narrow way that leads to eternal life (ST MT 7)

even if a nonCatholic is saved, it is through the Catholic Church

Aftrer all, it is the Church that put together the new testament... 4th century

anyone who acknowleges the books of the nt, acknowleges the authority of the RCC that put together those books, chose which books to include and which not... etc

Can I suggest you read Spe Salvi.