Scripture that should completely dispell Universalism and Annihilationism

[ByTheSpirit]

Revelation 14:9-11 ESV
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Not a lot I really need to say about it. It’s pretty cut and dry to me what is being said. Those who worship the beast will be “tormented with fire and sulfur… forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.” Reminds me of a story Jesus told about a certain rich man.

Luke 16:23-28
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

Notice the similarities. Place of fire (flame) and causes torment. Now this doesn’t necessarily say “forever and ever” as Revelation does, but with other teachings Jesus gave on the subject we can make the connection.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Clear, crystal clear scriptural teachings that there will be a lake of fire, that causes torment, day and night, forever and ever and those who worship the beast, nor believe in the name of Jesus Christ will be cast into it.

This is why we preach the gospel and warn people. There is a day of Judgement coming. Do not take it lightly! Be reconciled to God while there is still time to do so! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved [from the eternal fires of hell]

 

[Pavel Mosko]

(an old post)
I have a problem with UR (Universal Reconciliation) because if that was the will of God he could have communicated it better in the various parables, sermons etc. I have some Blog type entries that I will repost from Facebook, as well as reposted here on some threads.

1) But in a nutshell if that really was the will of God that could have been communicated much better than it was in the Bible. Basically, I'm a smart guy, and educated guy, but everything we know about the reputation of Jesus from the Bible as a "teacher", him being the Second Person of the Trinity etc. he should be able to run circles around me.

But even I can frame parables etc. that could communicate UCR type message. I for instance would tell the story of the Foolish Young virgins and the Feast, that they were only locked out of the feast for the first day or second day, but were able to buy oil from a shop keeper and later somewhere on the second day of the feast they bump into someone who lets them in.... so their sadness eventually is turned into joy.


2) But there is just a lot of Biblical language that is against the basic idea. In our day, recycling to save the environment is a big deal. In the days of the Bible, when there was no mass manufacturing recycling and refurbishing broken, damaged and worn out products was even a bigger deal. If UR was the will of God it would have been easy to include such a parable or metaphor in the Bible. Comparing a sinner as something like a broken sandal or maybe a broken sword that needs to be re-forged in the furnace. But we see no such parable made by Jesus. The Bible throughout actually does the opposite using words like chafe, dross etc. to describe the wicked. These are things that were considered waste products and thrown out, burned etc.


3) And then there is the problem of Satan.... IF UR is true will he be redeemed eventually? IF that is true why hasn't he already repented, he has had thousands of years to do so?

This actually is a kind of a good "thought experiment" type question because it actually gets at some of the theoretical aspects of what people believe not just about Soteriology, but other basic assumptions the differences between the creation of man vs. the angels and what difference that potentially makes in what God intends for each.



4) Problems with Freewill, Eternal Security etc.

Well I did eventually find how to access my old write up and will end my Blog post quoting my last summary point.


Point 4) on why I don't believe in Universal Reconciliation, 2 Potential Theological conundrums raised by it and a few side notes.
1) As much as it can be construed as an Act of Mercy, UR can actually be seen as an act of coercion (God is leaning on the person to make him or her say "uncle", so he/she will eventually do what he wants rather than eventually accepting their choice after he has wooed them for years on the Earth).

2) IF UR is true then that logically might mean that the eternal security of the the Church Triumphant might also be in jeopardy! (Now I don't believe that, but if UR is true on the hell side, then that might actually lead to that unfortunate drawback on the other.) Revelation 21:4 New International Version
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

3) I am also going to add a bullet point for those UR folks that like quoting the Church Fathers etc. I love the Fathers but some of them were very into Platonism. Platonism is great for many things (understanding a God that transcends His creation, is outside time etc.), but just as many modern Protestants I believe are deeply affected by their cultural philosophical heritage that affects their interpretation of the Bible, we likewise need to be realize that the same also applies to some of the Church Fathers.... (Certain quotes tend to reflect a Platonic interpretation of the Bible etc,)

4) Certain other Fathers, like Saint Isaac the Syrian, reflect a hope for the Salvation of humankind. This is very Christian attitude (of how we should orientate our lives) and something that we all should long for, pray for etc. It is not a dogmatic thing (something that is proclaimed that must happen as a official teaching), but a expression of love that we as Christians should have for the Lost.
.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Point 5) Why I don’t believe in Universal Reconciliation, Universal Reconciliation. Probably going to stop here (to not beat a dead horse). Besides some of the areas covered this forum discusses some other points of terminology I didn’t cover.

Properly Understanding the Greek word 'Aionios' and the Hebrew word 'Olam'. (Torah, purification) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum


UR depicts God as being a God that is inarticulate, inept or even secretive or deceptive at communicating his thoughts to humanity when it comes to the afterlife because most of the terminology, idioms, and implied messages about the after life from Jesus, the apostles and rest of the Bible depicts. This is a God who is very different than the one the prophets and the apostles knew and preached!


Matthew 5:37New International Version (NIV)

37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.


1 Corinthians 14:33King James Version (KJV)

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Romans 10:20

And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."


Amos 3:7

New International Version

Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.


1 Corinthians 14:8

New International Version

Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?


Isaiah 45:19 ►

Verse (Click for Chapter)

New International Version

I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

 

[tall73]

Revelation 14:9-11 ESV
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Not a lot I really need to say about it. It’s pretty cut and dry to me what is being said. Those who worship the beast will be “tormented with fire and sulfur… forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.” Reminds me of a story Jesus told about a certain rich man.

Reminds me of the judgment on Edom:

Isa 34:9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

 

[RileyG]

This is true. For some reason, Matthew 25 sticks out in my mind more than anything else. More than the book of Revelation for some reason.

 

[wendykvw]

Revelation 14:9-11 ESV
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Not a lot I really need to say about it. It’s pretty cut and dry to me what is being said. Those who worship the beast will be “tormented with fire and sulfur… forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.” Reminds me of a story Jesus told about a certain rich man.

Luke 16:23-28
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

Notice the similarities. Place of fire (flame) and causes torment. Now this doesn’t necessarily say “forever and ever” as Revelation does, but with other teachings Jesus gave on the subject we can make the connection.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Clear, crystal clear scriptural teachings that there will be a lake of fire, that causes torment, day and night, forever and ever and those who worship the beast, nor believe in the name of Jesus Christ will be cast into it.

This is why we preach the gospel and warn people. There is a day of Judgement coming. Do not take it lightly! Be reconciled to God while there is still time to do so! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved [from the eternal fires of hell]

Revelation 14:9-11 ESV
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Not a lot I really need to say about it. It’s pretty cut and dry to me what is being said. Those who worship the beast will be “tormented with fire and sulfur… forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.” Reminds me of a story Jesus told about a certain rich man.

Luke 16:23-28
and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’

Notice the similarities. Place of fire (flame) and causes torment. Now this doesn’t necessarily say “forever and ever” as Revelation does, but with other teachings Jesus gave on the subject we can make the connection.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:14-15
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Clear, crystal clear scriptural teachings that there will be a lake of fire, that causes torment, day and night, forever and ever and those who worship the beast, nor believe in the name of Jesus Christ will be cast into it.

This is why we preach the gospel and warn people. There is a day of Judgement coming. Do not take it lightly! Be reconciled to God while there is still time to do so! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved [from the eternal fires of hell]

Unitarian Universalist, and other forms of liberal universalism reject hell. Patristic universalist teach of the dangers of hell, and to avoid it. They have a higher view of sanctification/purification and believe the many scripture that warns God’s servants, leaders, and followers of the danger they too will face.


“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ” (Lk 12:47-48).

 

[Cockcrow]

some people just flat out reject Luke 16:19-31 Lazarus and the Rich man, falsely saying that it is just a parable. I've been told before that the whole thing is not a valid argument for hell and against annihilation because it was a parable. I don't believe that it was a parable, Jesus didn't use real names in parables. It seems highly unlikely that Jesus would paint such a horrible picture of Hell and it not be true like the consensus believes. I think Jesus was describing a real event, he had other strong words regarding hell so it would be consistent with his teachings to be true. dismissing or downplaying things that Jesus talked about is not something we should be doing, Universalism and Annihilationism are clearly not what Jesus ever taught.