Scripture Shows Genesis is Historical

[lucaspa]

Today at 12:48 AM gladiatrix said this in Post #111

PART I....

Taking the last part of your post first... No need to be sorry. Please don't take the following posts personally. It is just that the what Rohl and the Discovery Channel think of as evidence is so lame, which brings us to that "documentary" from the Discovery Channel you mention here: 

Should I take it as a compliment that you spent so much time refuting Weblastyn's source but never commented on my posts?

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 11:25 AM gladiatrix said this in Post #117

* 1. Apart from this single military encounter which in itself contradicts the Wilderness account, it seems unbelievable that 2 million+ Israelites could be unknown to a people who seemed to have taken "note" (literally and figuratively) of all circumstances in their sphere of influence.

So there weren't 2 million and that was an exaggeration of later writers to make Israel look more important than it was. 

* 2. The Exodus writer gives no name of any Pharaoh at the alleged time of Joseph or Moses.

Well, according to Keller the "Pharaoh" of Joseph wasn't an Egyptian Pharaoh but a Hyksos ruler. 

* 3. There is absolutely NO mention of Joseph, the 7-year famine, the plagues, the Israelites, or the drowning of Pharoah's (which one?) army in any Egyptian records covering the time that they were alleged to have been there.

The first 2 would have happened in the rule of the Hyksos, and all those records were destroyed when the Egyptians reclaimed their country.  The second could also have been suppressed.  Egyptians regularly went around and deleted parts of history they didn't like.  Look at the effort to wipe out Tutankhamon's predecessor from the official records. In this case absence of evidence is not evidence of absence because we don't have all the records.

* 4. Exodus alleges that there were upwards of 2 million people wandering in the "wilderness" for 40 years. However, despite decades of searching the sites listed in the Bible with every tool available to archaeological science (including ground-penetrating radar and satellite imagery), NOT one single, solitary, artifact has turned up!

In an area scavenged for 3400 years?  By people so poor that a single pot is wealth? You've got to be kidding! You are betting a lot that there were 2 million people.  I doubt there were 2 million people in all of Egypt at this time.  Yes, you've refuted the number of people well enough, but that doesn't touch the central claims of Exodus, just an auxiliary claim.

 

[gladiatrix]

Today at 12:07 PM lucaspa said this in Post #122
* 2. The Exodus writer gives no name of any Pharaoh at the alleged time of Joseph or Moses.

Well, according to Keller the "Pharaoh" of Joseph wasn't an Egyptian Pharaoh but a Hyksos ruler. 

The Bible says "Pharaoh" which is an Egyptian ruler, not a Hyksos one. If the Bible is historical, I would think that such a distinction would be easy to make. Furthermore, this is a very important person, regardless of whether he was a Hyksos ruler or a true Pharaoh and I find it extremely odd that the writer doesn't seem to know the name for either ruler.

In addition, the Exodus writer doesn't give the name of the Moses' Pharaoh. There is really no excuse possible for this omission and one can't claim that this man was anything other than a Pharaoh. This omission is a very big red flag that the story is just a story. Would you "forget" the name of an oppressor and especially one that was eventually vanquished in such a spectacular manner? I don't think so......

Lucaspa said:
* 3. There is absolutely NO mention of Joseph, the 7-year famine, the plagues, the Israelites, or the drowning of Pharoah's (which one?) army in any Egyptian records covering the time that they were alleged to have been there.

The first 2 would have happened in the rule of the Hyksos, and all those records were destroyed when the Egyptians reclaimed their country.  The second could also have been suppressed.  Egyptians regularly went around and deleted parts of history they didn't like.  Look at the effort to wipe out Tutankhamon's predecessor from the official records. In this case absence of evidence is not evidence of absence because we don't have all the records.

First, let me point out that we know about the attempts on the part of Egyptians to delete records and if we know then that means that they weren't very successful now doesn't it? As conspirators, the Egyptians don't seem to have been a great success because we have found evidence for the very people you claim they tried to eradicate from their history books. Now consider the case of the Israelites, a whole nation of people. How likely is it that it would be possible for the Egyptians to so completely expunge the records documenting the existence of such a large group of people.

All you can do is allege records destruction in this case. This is a very lame argument for the glaring lack of any recorded data on a large labor force

• that resided in Egypt for hundreds of years
• was supposed to be involved in construction of massive, impressive cities
• was supposed to have had members rise to the highest levels of government service (Joseph, Moses) Why no mention of Moses, AT ALL or the name of the this "Pharaoh" by the Exodus writer (no excuse for this failure on the part the Exodus writer, what would he have to gain by playing games here?)?

I find all this to be nothing but speculation on your part. You forget that none of the dates jive. When were the Israelites supposed to be there, what projects were they forced to work on, and when did they leave? If you take the Biblical date for Exodus (1447 BCE) that doesn't square with the notion that they built Raamses II treasure cities because this didn't happen until sometime betweeen 1279-1213 BCE. So who (Hyksos king, Pharaoh??) were they supposed to be forced to work for? Why is Moses not mentioned by Egyptians, the plagues, or the loss of so grand a work force (+2 million slaves is a lot of wealth to go bye-bye without someone noting the fact. Even if we think the Exodus writer exaggerated the number, you are still talking about a whole NATION of persons who would have been quite a loss in terms of wealth as slaves)?

The excuse that the Egyptians didn't mention it because they would look bad is really just another very lame excuse for the complete absence of any mention of these events, not to mention the fact that the logistics involved in expunging the records of evidence of a whole nation of persons makes the likelyhood of that very dubious indeed (remember we know they tried coverups on a lesser scale and failed).

Lucaspa said:
* 4. Exodus alleges that there were upwards of 2 million people wandering in the "wilderness" for 40 years. However, despite decades of searching the sites listed in the Bible with every tool available to archaeological science (including ground-penetrating radar and satellite imagery), NOT one single, solitary, artifact has turned up!

In an area scavenged for 3400 years?  By people so poor that a single pot is wealth? You've got to be kidding! You are betting a lot that there were 2 million people.  I doubt there were 2 million people in all of Egypt at this time.  Yes, you've refuted the number of people well enough, but that doesn't touch the central claims of Exodus, just an auxiliary claim.

We are still talking about a huge number of people (even if we grant that the Exodus writer exaggerated) who wandered about a small desert for 40 years. Archeologists have found evidence for much older hunter-gather societies, consisting of far fewer individuals (Neanderthal societies come to mind). The idea that somehow people managed to "scavenge" up every last bit of evidence for a large group of people that occupied some sites for decades is rather far-fetched in my view. Again you are alleging something for which you have no evidence. It is possible, but highly unlikely. The bottom-line here is there is no evidence that such a thing ever happened, period.

You can speculate all you want as to why there is no evidence, but the fact remains, there is none. Furthermore, the archeological record conflicts with the dates provided by the Bible. For instance, if you try to assign actual construction projects (Ex. Raamses II's treasure cities) as the handiwork of Israelite slaves , the dates are too late for the most accepted Exodus date of 1447 BCE.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 11:53 AM gladiatrix said this in Post #120 John is simply doing what he usually does when confronted and that is to pretend that no one has addressed his "evidence".

Of course you have not addressed the truth, your not interested in the truth. You would rather live in lies and deception. That is your choice, you have all the freedom to do whatever you want. But don't expect me to waste my time on it.

It seems pretty stupid to me. Your going to read all the anti christian sites. I am going to study up on all the pro christian sites and then you and me are going to argue about it?

Thanks but no thanks, looks like a waste of time to me. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe and thats it. I can accept that you made your choice and that is what you want. Who am I to get in your way of getting what you want?

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Habiru invaders = Hebrew invaders?

On the grounds that they are.

If the Habiru in Canaan weren't Hebrews then who were they? Aliens from Zeta Reticuli?

On what grounds?

On the grounds that they are identical.

The Habiru were slaves in Egypt and warriors in Canaan.

Sound familiar?

The connection here is one of the most wishful thinking as scholars don't agree on who the Habiru were or if the Habiru had any connection to the Hebrews at all.

The lack of connection here is one of the most wishful thinking as scholars don't agree there is no connection.

since when is speculation evidence?

I agree your speculation that there is no connection between Habiru and Hebrew doesn't qualify as evidence.

One other thing, notice that one is given no date for when any of these cites were destroyed nor is the manner of that destruction given in any detail. Is there evidence that they were all destroyed by a single invading force (such as the Israelites) during a specific time period ? NO!

Does the Bible say they were destroyed during a specific time period? NO!

"And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite [Phoenicians], and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee." -- Exodus 23:28-31

The Amaran letters date from 1350 BCE.

Exactly.

what are the Israelites doing here STILL after 100 years (date of Exodus 1447 BCE)?

Are you saying the Isaraelites are somewhere other than in Canaan?

Once again, the chronology just doesn't work, even if you assume that after wandering in the Sinai for 40 years, Joshua and Co. spent 60 years wreaking havoc elsewhere (Debir, Eglon, Hazor, Hebron, Jericho, Lachish, Libnah, Makkadeh, and Ai).

Exactly as the Bible describes!

 

[USincognito]

26th February 2003, 05:32 PM