Scripture regarding praying to saints

[TankGirl]

That didn't last long, did it? Was there something so incredibly difficult or challenging about my original request that made it simply impossible to abide by?

I honestly give up...

 

[TankGirl]

well various verses in Revelation show those in Heaven presenting prayers to God. its kinda common sense then to ask them to pray for us. just like i know my mom prays for me, but i might specifically ask her to pray for me at times.

also we accept 2 Maccabees as canonical which specifically shows the Priest Onias and Jeremiah (both deceased) praying for the Maccabees.

Can you provide specific verses (inc Maccabees, as it's not contained within my Bible...)

You want lots of scripture? Go here:
[URL="http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/URL]

Thank you - there were a few verses in amongst all the argument

Hello TankGirl,



Praying to the Saints: Alleged Proof Texts


Regarding your question, In Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Psalm 148:1-2).

In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8). Also we read that " another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand." (Revelation 8:3,4). We see that those in heaven, angels and humans, pray for us.

The above quotations are the closest attempts to give biblical support to the tradition of invoking dead saints. However, if we carefully look at those scriptures, we quickly discover that they do not support this practice at all.

The psalmist expresses his desire that the angels and all creation praise the Lord:

Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, and you waters above the heavens! (Psalms 148:1-4).

The psalmist addresses the heavens, the waters, the beasts, the birds, the fire and the snow, and all the people of the earth to praise God. Are we to conclude that this psalm teaches us to invoke the angels? We might as well say that we should be praying to the sun and the moon and the stars!

In the book of Revelation we read about the saints (Christians) on earth praying to God. The incense that is offered to God by the angel and the elders symbolizes their prayers.

It must be emphasized that the incense represents the prayers of the saints – that is, the prayers of Christians on earth. Twice we are told that the incense is 'the prayers of the saints.' Therefore the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angel or the elders in heaven.

Moreover, these prayers were addressed to God, and not to the elders in heaven or to the angel, for the incense ascended up before God. The saints on earth were praying to God; they were not asking the angels or saints in heaven to pray for them.

Clearly these passages do not teach us to pray to departed saints or angels, nor that they are interceding for us. If anyone desires to learn from the Bible about prayer, he would be in no doubt to whom he should address his prayers.

From the dawn of human existence, when men begun to call upon the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), to the last prayer recorded in the Bible (Revelation 22:20), the consistent example of all God’s people was to address their prayers to the Lord. Jesus teaches us by His example to pray to God (Luke 6:12). Jesus also teaches us to address our prayers to 'our Father in heaven.' The apostles and the disciples prayed to the Lord. We are taught to pray 'for' (not 'to') all saints, that is, we should pray for the needs of the living Christians on earth (Ephesians 6:18).

Communication with the dead is the practice of pagan religions and the occult, and not the Judeo-Christian faith as recorded in the Bible. The prophet Isaiah tells us:

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Whoever teaches that we should "seek the dead on behalf of the living" is in darkness and degrades the Christian faith to the level of the occult and superstition.

Hope this helped you

Thanks No Doubt - I appreciate those verses (don't need convincing, though )

I appreciate the three of you giving me what I actually asked for. I'll come back to see if anyone else can actually do as I asked, but if I have to trawl through all this juvenile sniping, you won't see me for dust. Don't know why I expected anything different...

 

[k2svpete]

Rev. 8:3
it is not saints in heaven but it is a being offering up your prayers to God
in the Bible the word saint is often used to refer to those who are still alive, but that is because the epistles are letters addressing the church, or saints, in differant cities. Now this Bible verse does not say all the saints on earth but all the saints, this could imply the saints in heaven as well

I wouldn't stand on one verse from Revelation to base a doctrine on.

 

[k2svpete]

Matt 6 -

5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.[b] 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen


There is the example given to us by Jesus Christ, its good enough for me.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Anyone know why the NT church didn't practice it ?....Why they didn't give and example?

Because the NT epistles were:
1) Only dealing with particula issues, usually local problems
2) Never meant to be a systematic piece of theology analyzing every Christian belief.

Its the "sola scriptura" problem, that everything MUST be found in the Bible. Ironically, that teaching ITSELF is NOT found in the Bible

 

[Catholic Christian]

Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen


There is the example given to us by Jesus Christ, its good enough for me.

1 Timothy 2:1-3:

First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior.

So praying for each other is "good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior". So there is ANOTHER exasmple that should be good enough for you.

 

[TankGirl]

I am simply looking for cites of verses which people here feel point to the idea of praying to saints.

This was clearly too much to ask.

Will a Mod kindly close this thread asap.

I do not want my simple, straightforward request for information to be used as an excuse to bicker & behave like children. I should have known better...

Thank you very much to those few who DID answer as requested, but I can't stand anymore of this, and I know it will only get worse if left to itself...

 

[winsome]

This was clearly too much to ask.

No, it wasn't that it was too much to ask. It was that you crippled the topic by unreasonable restriction in the OP.

 

[TankGirl]

No, it wasn't that it was too much to ask. It was that you crippled the topic by unreasonable restriction in the OP.

What hogwash. You have 100s of threads to debate to your hearts content. I asked a simple question, desiring a simple answer. I was very specific. Several responders managed to understand me perfectly well, and were capable a restraining themselves to the topic. There was absolutely nothing unreasonable about my OP. Unless it is unreasonable to expect people to not squabble and bicker like 5 year olds.

 

[Samuel_Rigby]

Thread closed at request of OP.